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Super Diamond, Zodiac, Envoy, Diamond...) seats, general discussion & comparison

Old Jul 31, 2017, 12:43 pm
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Super Diamond, Zodiac, Envoy, Diamond...) seats, general discussion & comparison

Old Jul 25, 2017, 3:34 am
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Super Diamond, Zodiac, Envoy, Diamond...) seats, general discussion & comparison

I flew the 789 DFW-MAD a couple of days ago and personally I prefer the Zodiac seats in the 788, with the obvious caveat of getting a non-connected 788 seat. Compared to the rear-facing Zodiac seat, the BE seat had less storage and I liked the extra power plugs in the Zodiac seat.

On my flight the crew controlled the cabin windows but were nice enough to relinquish control to me. I was in 2A. I find tht if you set the windows to the 2nd or 3rd open setting, you can see out but the cabin doesn't get flooded with light.

Also, the crew didn't pull the curtains to the galley and without the eye shades it would have been very annoying. The noise was noticeable even with earplugs.

Last edited by Catbert10; Jul 25, 2017 at 3:42 am
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Old Jul 25, 2017, 7:00 am
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Originally Posted by Catbert10
I flew the 789 DFW-MAD a couple of days ago and personally I prefer the Zodiac seats in the 788, with the obvious caveat of getting a non-connected 788 seat.
I agree. I've done the 789 a couple of times now and still prefer the Zodiac seat.

The Super Diamond on the 772, however, feels more private. Not sure why, but it just does to me.
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Old Aug 9, 2018, 4:55 pm
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I’m puzzled, are the Zodiacs different on different planes? I’m on a 772 with fore -aft Zodiac (4l) and there is no storage other than a tiny area by the outlets. On the B/E, 772, there are at least four areas, two shallow bins on the window side, one deeper place by your feet, and a place for the headphones in the armrest. Is there a storage area I’m missing?

ETA: during the flight I found two storage wells on either side of the seat, one can hold a water bottle (but not two), the other can hold newspapers.

Last edited by beachfan; Aug 10, 2018 at 9:54 am
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Old Aug 10, 2018, 2:24 am
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The B/E seats are made by the former company B/E (currently Rockwell Collins, about to be United Technologies), hence why they're different than the Zodiac seats, which are made by Zodiac....and not related to B/E at all.....so, it's expected to be different?
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Old Aug 10, 2018, 6:50 am
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Originally Posted by beachfan
Im puzzled, are the Zodiacs different on different planes? Im on a 772 with fore -aft Zodiac (4l) and there is no storage other than a tiny area by the outlets. On the B/E, 772, there are at least four areas, two shallow bins on the window side, one deeper place by your feet, and a place for the headphones in the armrest. Is there a storage area Im missing?
The seat on the 77W is the Zodiac Cirrus.

The seat on 19 current 772s is the Zodiac Concept D. And yes, the storage is not as much right around the seat as the 77W.

The seat on the other 28 772s is the B/E Super Diamond... which has the most storage around the seat, yes.
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Old Aug 10, 2018, 9:26 am
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Originally Posted by Catbert10
I flew the 789 DFW-MAD a couple of days ago and personally I prefer the Zodiac seats in the 788, with the obvious caveat of getting a non-connected 788 seat.
That's a pretty huge caveat since a significant majority of seats are connected.

Compared to the rear-facing Zodiac seat, the BE seat had less storage and I liked the extra power plugs in the Zodiac seat.
As others have noted, I'm confused about your assessment of storage. Personally, one USB and one universal power port has always been enough for me but I can see how it might be helpful for people to have an additional one. I think they're both reasonably good business class seats, but B/E has much better storage and none of them shake so on balance I think they're pretty clearly superior.
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Old Aug 10, 2018, 9:56 am
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Originally Posted by econometrics


The seat on the 77W is the Zodiac Cirrus.

The seat on 19 current 772s is the Zodiac Concept D. And yes, the storage is not as much right around the seat as the 77W.

The seat on the other 28 772s is the B/E Super Diamond... which has the most storage around the seat, yes.

Thanks for clairifying that the Cirrus is also Zodiac, I totally forgot. I thought it was a different company that made them since they wanted something cheaper in the Concept D. Was it licensing fees for the Cirrus that caused AA not to continue with it? Or was the seat itself that much more expensive? I wouldn't be surprised because it (Cirrus) is at least twice as good as the Zodiac, it's my favorite J seat around.
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Old Aug 10, 2018, 2:05 pm
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Originally Posted by beachfan
Thanks for clairifying that the Cirrus is also Zodiac, I totally forgot. I thought it was a different company that made them since they wanted something cheaper in the Concept D. Was it licensing fees for the Cirrus that caused AA not to continue with it? Or was the seat itself that much more expensive? I wouldn't be surprised because it (Cirrus) is at least twice as good as the Zodiac, it's my favorite J seat around.
It was definitely cost and attempting to cram more seats into a smaller plane (the 788's and 772's at first). But then they have the same # of seats in the Super Diamond variant now on the 772's as the 772's with Zodiac D seats.

@JDiver has more info on this. I'm foggy on it.
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Old Aug 10, 2018, 2:39 pm
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As I understand it, some would-be wheeler dealer at AA had the brilliant idea of instituting some cost savings by dealing with Zodiac Seats US* of Gainesville, TX (a subsidiary of Zodiac Aerospace Of France, and previously Weber until 2012) to supply one-off modified seats for the 787-8, 772 refit, etc.

Their response was the Zodiac “Concept D Business Class Suite”. Of course, as it appears no other airline wanted to cheap out as much as AA , there was little economy of scale. The seat design had problems as well - the “yin and yang” aft+forward seat concept isn’t very popular with the flying public, the “Motion over the ocean” problem (possibly lighter weight stiffening?) occurred and the center privacy dividers were inoperative by passengers. (AA has stated they’d fix these, but any fix must be submitted to the FAA for an STC, and guess what? Zodiac probably isn’t going to be the one to do that.)

The manufacturing of this seat seems to have been relegated to second position, so Zodiac started Missing contract delivery dates. Now, AA had brand spanking new Dreamliners without seats, sitting out in the desert. AA tried to defer payment for these 787-8s, but nobody was buying that - Boeing supplied the aircraft sans seats in time, had no responsibility for seats, and the relegation to desert parking was no concern of theirs.

AA sued and killed the Zodiac contract, and went fishing for a new seat from another manufacturer. Tadah, B/E Aerospace Of Wellington, FL (now Rockwell Collins since they were bought out in April 2017) and the Super Diamond. (The Diamond “parallel” is already installed in the A321T and 757-200 “L”.)

So, we have Zode and Super Diamond seats in 772s. We have the actual Zodiac Cirrus in the Airbii widebodii. Zode in a portion of the 772 fleet, Super Diamonds in the other and in the 787-9. Delays of the 772 refits (persisting to this date, as the 45J Zodes still have no Premium Economy and are awaiting who knows what to refit to 37J.)

But... other 787-8s are in order. So we’ll ultimately pribably have split threads on 787-8s with Zodiacs, vs 787-8s with Super Diamonds.

Complicated, but his is the aviation industry. (IMO going with the straight Zodiac Cirrus customized to AA colors, etc. might well have avoided the entire debacle. Concept D got a D- in my mind. At best. I do wonder where the budding genius responsible for this ended up? Could ZSUS have supplied unmodified but airline customized Cirrus seats to the widebody fleet and completed them in time? You know, like the ones in the 77W? Or used by EVA or CX? IMO, probably:

*”ZSUS is now the largest manufacturer of airline seats in the world as well as the holder of several notable patents for products created by its employees. With a main facility exceeding 700,000 square feet and over 3,000 employees (as of 2015), ZSUS is the largest single employer in Gainesville/Cooke County. Additionally, ZSUS contains satellite facilities in Chihuahua, Mexico and Tianjin, China; and service locations in Everett, Washington and Atlanta, Georgia.” - Wikipedia
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Last edited by JDiver; Aug 10, 2018 at 4:05 pm
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Old Aug 10, 2018, 5:23 pm
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FT urban legend

Originally Posted by JDiver
As I understand it, some would-be wheeler dealer at AA had the brilliant idea of instituting some cost savings..
Had absolutely nothing to do with saving $ on the seat-- nothing.
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Old Aug 10, 2018, 5:48 pm
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Originally Posted by JonNYC
Had absolutely nothing to do with saving $ on the seat-- nothing.
Curious here...Was it just an attempt at some innovation that went awry?
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Old Aug 10, 2018, 5:57 pm
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Originally Posted by JonNYC
Had absolutely nothing to do with saving $ on the seat-- nothing.
As I stated, “as I understand it”. The resulting seat is such a shoddy product (induced motion from other seats, unusable privacy divider, generally poor fit and finish throughout I’ve observed flying in these seats I now avoid if possible) that though you are probably correct, I can’t imagine cost saving wasn’t at least part of the motive to ignore a Sterling product in favor of the shoddy Concept D product.

If this was an attempt to design a new seat and avoid paying JPA Design Consultants royalties, for sure it failed. People generally love the 777-323ER J Zodiac Cirrus seat; Concept D...
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Old Aug 10, 2018, 6:01 pm
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Originally Posted by JonNYC
Had absolutely nothing to do with saving $ on the seat-- nothing.
So why did they do it? They 77W Cirrus is an absolute winner, they folded the winning hand if it wasn't due to cost. (I thought there was some licensing fee they didn't want to pay).
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Old Aug 10, 2018, 6:02 pm
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Originally Posted by DMPHL
Curious here...Was it just an attempt at some innovation that went awry?
That would be a pretty good way of describing it. I have posted before just tiny parts of the story of how concept-A, B and C eventually morphed into D. The original plan was to introduce a truly revolutionary seat with absolutely unprecedented amounts of personal space (for a U.S. carrier) -- sort of a scaled-down flagship suite-- and AA marketing materials even reflected that for a time (long after the seat had been massively shrunk down and changed in design entirely.)

The idea was to have a "blank canvas" (or whatever cliche one might choose to employ) and have a revolutionary product-- Cirrus at the time being deemed ("good but nothing special" by AA IFP.)

My old posts might come up using search of "personal space" along with "Cirrus" etc.

But, in any event, certainly had absolutely nothing to do with trying to save $ on the seat, going with off the shelf Cirrus would have saved a fortune and could have been line-fit by Boeing to boot.
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Old Aug 10, 2018, 6:07 pm
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Originally Posted by JonNYC
That would be a pretty good way of describing it. I have posted before just tiny parts of the story of how concept-A, B and C eventually morphed into D. The original plan was to introduce a truly revolutionary seat with absolutely unprecedented amounts of personal space (for a U.S. carrier) -- sort of a scaled-down flagship suite-- and AA marketing materials even reflected that for a time (long after the seat had been massively shrunk down and changed in design entirely.)

The idea was to have a "blank canvas" (or whatever cliche one might choose to employ) and have a revolutionary product-- Cirrus at the time being deemed ("good but nothing special" by AA IFP.)

My old posts might come up using search of "personal space" along with "Cirrus" etc.

But, in any event, certainly had absolutely nothing to do with trying to save $ on the seat, going with off the shelf Cirrus would have saved a fortune and could have been line-fit by Boeing to boot.
Okay, Ill buy that. But in working with various manufacturing industries, Ive rarely seen something go so wrong, particularly if this was the fourth iteration.

In any case, Im sure Rockwell Collins is happy with the outcome.
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