C17PSGR

A couple of posters have discussed DOT complaints and OP said he is considering making one.

C17PSGR

Which goes to the DOT issue ... seems unlikely they will require AA to use a "loophole" or to use Japan as a destination in OP's situation when validating visa requirements.

LHR/MEL/Europe FF

But the advice from the Chinese embassy that it is a legal itinerary? AA's reluctance to use any one of the other options available to them?

gengar

For what I believe is the third time now: AA cannot make the decision to rely on TIMATIC as their source for border control policy, but then wash their hands of liability when their agents incorrectly/incompetently use or interpret the information, or even when TIMATIC is wrong - especially when the purpose of relying on TIMATIC is CYA.

It's just like any other contract. A party to a contract can't just decide that they no longer want to fulfill their obligations because there is some (perceived) benefit to gain for themselves. It's even more disappointing that AA unilaterally did so and now is trying to avoid paying even the direct damages it caused to OP.

C17PSGR

Interesting thread ... showing the same issues, except on DL, with mostly the same posters as this thread. We do seem to be a little more polite over here

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/china...v-rules-2.html

JonNYC

That thread is very illuminating, in a disturbing kind of way.

C17PSGR

^^^

FlyingJay

What am I missing here?

AA's response is that: "It is therefore our policy -- and that of most other airlines -- that documentation requirements are the full responsibility of the traveler who should verify with the Consulate prior to departure."

I have that documentation from the Chinese Consulate in LA and provided it upon check-in. Technically and legally speaking, my original itinerary is TWOV complaint (notwithstanding everyone's interpretation and definition and spirit of the wording).

I understand AA's right to protect themselves from improper transit of people and government fines. If they feel more comfortable re-ticketing a route, then it is more than realistic to expect them to cover those additional costs. Particularly at the gate the day of departure- They had plenty of time to see no Visa information was entered.

To be honest, I feel good about going to small claims with the Consulate approval, TIMATIC TWOV rules, and AA's response. Neither party can be represented by counsel in small claims. Anyways, I will visit the local small claims advisory group in the next couple weeks to see what they suggest. I am still hopeful AA will make it right. At this point they are an additional $1200 from satisfying my claims.

And yeah- I will never TWOV again. Ultimately this hurts Long Haul AA travel. Without the TWOV, I would have opted for Cancun on Virgin America and there would have been 4 more empty seats on that beautiful 787 to PVG...

flyerCO

If I remember correctly CA doesn't allow attorneys in small claims court. There was a case a few years back where a gentlemen took ATT wireless to small claims court. Since no lawyer could appear, the local district manager or such was sent to represent ATT wireless.

C17PSGR

Well ... you'll notice that the crowd posting in this thread that AA is wrong and will definitely pay may not be the most objective bunch ... see the DL thread I posted.

When you discuss with the small claims group, you might tell get their input on (a) that at least some people think that you had a ticket back to LAX not a ticket to Narita, (b) to get this trip to go through Timatic, they had to use Japan as the destination and the agent wouldn't do that, and (c) whether the practical treatment of TWOV in China matters when it is potentially different than the language governing TWOV. Those are certainly arguments that AA would make and while you may discount them, others may think they are valid. I don't know the title of the person from the consulate who sent the email but AA might question that person's authority depending on their level.

Your bigger issue is the Airline Deregulation Act preemption problem.

flyerCO

They don't have to be penalized. However they should be made to remedy the error. IE refund the customer what they were made to pay extra, but no fine/penalty.

FlyingJay

Fair enough. The advisory group will give me my realistic expectations. I don't have any grand illusions of a payout or anything like that. I still hold out hope AA will make this right. I am following the advice to request a call so I can hash out some of the details.

moondog

If AA questions that person's authority, they could always call the consulate and ask about it. The OP certainly shouldn't loose any sleep over this though.

LHR/MEL/Europe FF

You seem to side-step the various actions AA could have taken - that a reasonable airline - might take in the same situation.

Embassy print-out, replicating the embassy print-out, calling AA China, calling Shanghai Immigration, asking the passenger to sign an indemnity.

All of those would seem to outweigh the notion that a reasonable agent would not be even willing to try entering Japan as a destination.

Most visas and other consular activities are not issued or conducted by the ambassador themselves. They are done by front-line staff. This is not reason to doubt the validity of any consular advice provided.

C17PSGR

Agent: Sir, our system shows that individuals traveling from LA to PVG and back require a visa.

Pax: I get that, can you put Japan into the system rather than PVG. That way, it will show I qualify for TWOV.

Agent: But sir, you're not going to Japan, you're going to PVG.

Pax: Right, but I'm flying to Japan after PVG, and if you use that as the destination then it will show I don't need a visa.

Agent: Sir, you're traveling to PVG, spending a few days there, then heading straight back to the US with a short connection in Japan. I can't enter Japan as your destination -- that's just not true.

Pax: Look, I've heard that Chinese immigration only cares that I'm flying back through Japan and doesn't care where my final destination.

Agent: Sir, we have to work with official rules. This is a system with a international database compiled by the IATA. It was compiled with input from national immigration authorities from all over the world. I can't just enter Japan as a destination to avoid the visa requirement -- you're asking me to do something that's not true.

***

I realize that those over from the China TWOV thread feel very strongly about this but that's what you're asking the agent to do -- and what you're suggesting travelers should pressure the agent to do. Most objective people will recognize this.

I'm all for helping OP making the best of this unfortunate situation but it seems to me that these are the relevant points:

1. Visas are a safer way of guaranteeing travel to China.
2. If you want to use the TWOV rather than a visa, then have an actual and real stopover in a third country. The kind where an agent whether from AA, AC, BA, DL, UA won't question using that as a destination. Such as going to PVG for a few days, then to SIN for a few days.
3. Those over in the China forum strongly advocate TWOV -- but an objective person would acknowledge there are occasionally problems with the airlines and cruise lines agreeing with their interpretation. Thus, understand that using TWOV without a real stopover has some risk that you need to assume. An objective person would also recognize that there is a difference between TWOV and a short term visitors visa. As someone in another thread noted: "Are there any other situations in the World where you can avoid getting a visa because of where you changed planes on your way there?"
4. Chinese immigration folks don't mess around. You might read this for a couple of NZ students who thought they would use TWOV and didn't realize they had to clear immigration in a non-TWOV city and couldn't actually get to PEK. Note that they blamed the airline for not telling them that TWOV wouldn't work -- and their trip was an obvious transit point between Turkey and NZ. https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/...s-journey-hell
5. The source of this problem is not AA or DL or the airlines. If someone feels strongly about this, they should reach out to IATA or somehow find the Chinese representative to the IATA and ask them to work with the IATA.