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-   -   144 TWOV China- AA Issues/Questions (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/american-airlines-aadvantage/1837368-144-twov-china-aa-issues-questions.html)

JonNYC Apr 17, 17 10:30 pm


Originally Posted by Colin (Post 28193811)
I would never attempt to fly the OPs routing & ticket.

No one should.


Originally Posted by FlyingJay (Post 28193790)
I have a email confirmation from the Chinese Embassy confirming my itinerary as qualifying. The TIMATIC guidelines say I cannot have a DIRECT flight back to country of origin. PVG-NRT-LAX is an INDIRECT flight.

But the rule is you must be in transit to a 3rd Country, you were not.

deskover54 Apr 17, 17 10:31 pm


Originally Posted by JonNYC (Post 28193710)
This is most definitely -not- my forte, but I'll take a stab at it.

I think you were given wrong explanation, in a way.

TWOV requires travel to a third Country-- not a return to origin, so LAX to PVG followed by a return of PVG-NRT-LAX-- without that stopover in NRT, is, in fact, not a proper use of China TWOV.
You needed a actual Visa because you were actually visiting China.

But will defer to actual experts here.

This sounds different than what is later stated in the thread. Has anyone clarified the correct terms of TWOV.

Also, what is the difference between the 72 and 144 versions?

IggySD Apr 17, 17 10:33 pm


Originally Posted by Colin (Post 28193811)
I would never attempt to fly the OPs routing & ticket.

I would get a 10 year CN visa for the peace of mind.

If I were going to attempt TVOV and wanted to use the indicated flights, I would be sure to book outbound as a one-way and return on a seperate ticket. Would then eticket a refundable J ticket PVG-SIN on SQ and use this ticket for LAX checkin as proof of eligibility for TWOV. Once in CN, cancel SQ tox for refund and fly AA home.

I'm not sure if this would work. From the way it was explained to me, the only way to get TIMATIC to show the applicable rule is to list China as a transit point. I have a suspicion that you would run into the same issues where the AA agent is going to consider the city in PRC to be your destination unless you have a one way ticket LAX-PEK/PVG-XXX (non US city). I doubt they would take a separate ticket on a different carrier into consideration.

nutwpinut Apr 17, 17 10:35 pm

After skimming through the flyertalk thread on the matter:
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/chin...hread-101.html

Looks like it doesn't matter if it is 72 or 144, but it looks like it is still a possible issue with FAs and GAs unable to recognize a stopover is not necessary, just only need an indirect flight back to the country of origin.

Honestly, that is what has kept me from doing a mileage run to PEK. I'm afraid of getting an FA or GA that doesn't understand the rules and won't budge.

FlyingJay Apr 17, 17 10:36 pm


Originally Posted by JonNYC (Post 28193819)
No one should.



But the rule is you must be in transit to a 3rd Country, you were not.

What is funny is I got the idea for this routing through the TWOV flyertalk thread. Many travel blogs including FlyerTalk, TripAdviosr, and PointsGuy all mention the LAX-PVG-NRT-LAX route as acceptable.

rjw242 Apr 17, 17 10:38 pm


Originally Posted by FlyingJay (Post 28193838)
What is funny is I got the idea for this routing through the TWOV flyertalk thread. Many travel blogs including FlyerTalk, TripAdviosr, and PointsGuy all mention the LAX-PVG-NRT-LAX route as acceptable.

Acceptable, perhaps, but risky:


Originally Posted by nutwpinut (Post 28193837)
Looks like it doesn't matter if it is 72 or 144, but it looks like it is still a possible issue with FAs and GAs unable to recognize a stopover is not necessary, just only need an indirect flight back to the country of origin.

If you were aware of the threads, then you were almost certainly aware of the risks.

FlyingJay Apr 17, 17 10:40 pm


Originally Posted by FlyingJay (Post 28193838)
What is funny is I got the idea for this routing through the TWOV flyertalk thread. Many travel blogs including FlyerTalk, TripAdviosr, and PointsGuy all mention the LAX-PVG-NRT-LAX route as acceptable.

I also failed to mention that multiple calls to AA reservations prior to departure all resulted in saying my itinerary was good and that all I need was my passport at the gate.

I did not go into this blind. As mentioned before, I have documentation from Chinese Embassy approving the booked Itinerary.

sukn Apr 17, 17 10:40 pm

It is my understanding as well that duration of stop in the third country is irrelevant even if you are just transiting through it as the OP was planning to do in NRT.

nutwpinut Apr 17, 17 10:43 pm

This is from the China Visa Flyertalk wiki as of 15 Jan 2017:
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/chin...hread-151.html


• Duration of stop in third country is irrelevant (e.g., LAX-PVG-NRT-LAX is compliant, even if NRT stop is for only a few hours).

swiss_global Apr 17, 17 10:44 pm

I guess it depends not only on immigration control into China, but also on emigration control (China, unlike the US, does check your passport when departing from the country). So if you show up with a PVG-LAX boarding pass upon depature, I'm quite sure there will be a problem. If you have a PVG-NRT boarding pass, not mentioning LAX, you could probably get away with it. But I somehow understand that the AA agents didn't want to take the risk.

IggySD Apr 17, 17 10:45 pm


Originally Posted by JonNYC (Post 28193819)
No one should.



But the rule is you must be in transit to a 3rd Country, you were not.

Jon - I know you have good inside sources at AA but I would encourage you to get a second (or even third and fourth opinion) here as in my situation I received conflicting information from AA. I did a good bit of research while standing in line / trying to convince the agent and everything I found on line indicated that the term "transit" in this case merely refers to traveling to a third country. No requirements regarding the length of time in the third country. This was from from the regular blogs, as well as a law blog (I have no idea if he's really a lawyer but he specifically answers this question: http://lawandborder.com/china-72-hou...t-visa-waiver/ Additionally the Chinese embassy has a FAQ which does not specify any requirements for the length of the stay in the third country.

Additionally, since a refund was offered with no question and the response I received from CS was as close to an apology and acceptance of error from a corporation as I'm ever likely to see I have to assume that there are a significant number of people within AA who see it my way rather than yours (additionally, if you read the TWOV thread it is agrees with the interpretation I presented).

nutwpinut Apr 17, 17 10:47 pm

I am interested in how this works out because I do want to do this MR some day. From my understanding, this is legal, but confusing.

OP, please post back when you get your answer from AA.

JonNYC Apr 17, 17 10:47 pm


Originally Posted by FlyingJay (Post 28193838)
What is funny is I got the idea for this routing through the TWOV flyertalk thread. Many travel blogs including FlyerTalk, TripAdviosr, and PointsGuy all mention the LAX-PVG-NRT-LAX route as acceptable.

Yes, for sure-- that was quickly pointed out to me, that many folks have been told by many sources this is allowed and may succeed.

And, it may well be that one can prevail (either later as a poster upthread did, getting a refund) or even have a good % chance (probably a very good % chance) of not having this problem.

The section from TIMATIC states:

- Transit without visa (TWOV) is not permitted when the
passenger arrives AND departs on direct flights from/to USA
and USA territory Guam or Northern Mariana Isl.
I'm not sure where else in the section itself one can find an affirmative statement to help any check-in agent -not- assume that this is a visit to China, not a transit in China-- since that's exactly and precisely what it is. But it' true that many do say affirmatively "go for it!" and even go so far as to state that the rule -is- satisfied by the transit in NRT. Again, I'm no expert.

Where I -am- a bit of an expert in is how AA operates, and, I'd say the odds of AA "straightening out" it's check-in agents on this, to the extent that that's called for or not, is very close to zero.

FlyingJay Apr 17, 17 10:48 pm

答复: 144 Transit without Visa
Chinese Consulate in L.A. Visa and Passport Office to you show details

Hello,
the itinerary looks good. And for more information, please visit the following website: http://www.sh-immigration.gov.cn/lis...?lx=40&id=4414

Shanghai General Station of Immigration Inspection
www.sh-immigration.gov.cn
To support the construction of Shanghai Science and Technology Innovation Center, sanctioned by the State Council, Shanghai is to adopt a 144-hour visa-exemption ...

Visa and Passport Office
Chinese Consulate in Los Angeles
Add: 3rd Floor, 500 shatto place Los Angeles ,CA,90020
Tel: 213-201-1765
Fax: 213-380-0372
Office Hour: 9:00-14:00, Monday to Friday (Holidays excluded)

________________________________________
发件人:
发送时间: 2017年3月23日 3:04
收件人: [email protected]
主题: 144 Transit without Visa

Hello,

Does the following airline itinerary qualify for the 144 hour visa-free transit? We are staying at the Disneyland hotel and not leaving the city.

Thank You for your help


Sunday, April 9, 2017

LAX

PVG

11:25 AM
4:25 PM

Los Angeles
Shanghai Pu Dong


American Airlines 183
Seats: -- , -- , -- , --
Class: Economy (O)
Meals: Lunch/dinner



________________________________________

Friday, April 14, 2017

PVG

NRT

11:50 AM
3:50 PM

Shanghai Pu Dong
Tokyo Narita


Japan Airlines 874
Seats: -- , -- , -- , --
Class: Economy (O)
Meals:




NRT

LAX

5:25 PM
11:40 AM

Tokyo Narita
Los Angeles


American Airlines 170

nk15 Apr 17, 17 10:49 pm

I think you were technically correct, but it seemed (and was) one of those marginal cases open to debate/interpretation. Because it looked like (and was) that you were in essence wanted to travel to China, and relying on a technicality to get the TWOV. It was very risky and didn't work out. I would try to recoup loses from AA or travel insurance, but who knows if you will get anything back.


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