FlyerTalk Forums - 144 TWOV China- AA Issues/Questions

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- - 144 TWOV China- AA Issues/Questions (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/american-airlines-aadvantage/1837368-144-twov-china-aa-issues-questions.html)

YuropFlyer

Apr 19, 2017 1:25 pm

Go tell that UA :D

flyerCO

Apr 19, 2017 1:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonNYC (Post 28193819)

No one should.

But the rule is you must be in transit to a 3rd Country, you were not.

China only cares that you have a confirmed onward ticket to a country/SAR (Hong Kong/Macau) other then that which you came from. Of course needs to be within 72/144 hours of midnight night of arrival. Length of stay there doesn't matter.

Flew many TWOV trips to China before getting an actual visa because US agents get this so wrong. DL has the same issue. I would fly AA LAX-PVG and then book PVG-HKG-LAX coming back.

AA agent one time gave me the TIAMTIC code that should be referenced.

FlyingJay

Apr 19, 2017 1:51 pm

Update: haven't heard a word from AA. Complaint submitted Sunday Night.

nutwpinut

Apr 19, 2017 1:58 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyingJay (Post 28201861)

Update: haven't heard a word from AA. Complaint submitted Sunday Night.

Thanks for the update!

I feel like this thread will no longer offer any new information except for the OP's updates or a major change happens.

ianmanka

Apr 19, 2017 1:58 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Noble (Post 28197174)

When it comes to permitting travel to the country, the airline is required to ensure that the passenger meets the documented terms for admission to that country - allow an ineligible person to travel and the airline get penalised...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Often1 (Post 28197222)

AA's sole interest in checking documents is to protect itself from transporting someone determined by PRC authorities to be improperly documented. AA is subject to substantial fines and the prospect of returning the individual to the US and having to chase the individual for the cost.

This is an element of this discussion that I think is getting lost in the other posts -- what is the penalty to AA and/or the check-in agent if they approve documents that shouldn't have been approved per TIMATIC?

If Chinese immigration officials deny entry and send someone back to the U.S., what fines are levied on AA? Does AA track denied immigration entries and make a note in an employee's file? If either/both of these are true, I recognize why a check-in agent may hesitate to apply what the customer suggests (entering China as a transit point in TIMATIC), since they may be the recipient of consequences associated with an incorrect boarding.

moondog

Apr 19, 2017 2:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ianmanka (Post 28201896)

It would make more sense to ask what is the penalty for wrongly denying purchased transportation to eligible passengers since that is the topic of this thread.

grrizzli

Apr 19, 2017 2:45 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by moondog (Post 28201947)

It would make more sense to ask what is the penalty for wrongly denying purchased transportation to eligible passengers since that is the topic of this thread.

There's no penalty. That's clear. And in this particular case the union would have an iron-proof case to defend the employee even if AA wanted to punish him/her.

anacapamalibu

Apr 19, 2017 3:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by moondog (Post 28201947)

It would make more sense to ask what is the penalty for wrongly denying purchased transportation to eligible passengers since that is the topic of this thread.

That's a rhetorical question. Everyone knows the answer...nothing.:D

anacapamalibu

Apr 19, 2017 3:38 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyingJay (Post 28201861)

Update: haven't heard a word from AA. Complaint submitted Sunday Night.

I am surprised...it only takes a second to type in #SAND .

KVS	Apr 19, 2017 3:57 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonNYC (Post 28193924)

I, too, am told that such letter is completely irrelevant.Or, if one disagrees with that, 100% irrelevant to an check-in agent who is to be guided by only by TIMATIC

And the agent would see that:

[KVS Tool 8.4.6/Diamond - TIMATIC: Expert Mode: TIRULES/R32]

Code:

R32) TWOV

     ....



Transit Without Visa (TWOV): Passing through an international

transit area of the airport in order to board a connecting (or

to proceed by the same) flight, without entering the country

(i.e. clearing immigration).



Unless stated otherwise, passengers wishing to TWOV must:

- be en-route to a third country (e.g. itinerary TYO-LON-TYO

is not considered TWOV);

- prove that they will continue their journey within the

prescribed period (e.g. hold onward tickets); 

- have documents required for entry into the country of

destination and for transit through countries en-route;

- remain in the transit area (airside) or on the aircraft.



Note: For transit purposes through China (People's Rep.), Hong

Kong (SAR China) and Macao (SAR China) are considered as third

countries, as they have their own entry regulations.



Note: TWOV is not intended for those holding stand-by tickets,

e.g. airline employees or other passengers traveling on

industry discount. 



CHECK [[TINEWS]] - CHECK LATEST NEWS AND UPDATES ON TRAVEL

INFORMATION



19 Apr 2017 / 21:53 [UTC]

flyerCO

Apr 19, 2017 4:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by KVS (Post 28202498)

And the agent would see that:

[KVS Tool 8.4.6/Diamond - TIMATIC: Expert Mode: TIRULES/R32]

Code:

R32) TWOV

....



Transit Without Visa (TWOV): Passing through an international

transit area of the airport in order to board a connecting (or

to proceed by the same) flight, without entering the country

(i.e. clearing immigration).



Unless stated otherwise, passengers wishing to TWOV must:

- be en-route to a third country (e.g. itinerary TYO-LON-TYO

is not considered TWOV);

- prove that they will continue their journey within the

prescribed period (e.g. hold onward tickets);

- have documents required for entry into the country of

destination and for transit through countries en-route;

- remain in the transit area (airside) or on the aircraft.



Note: For transit purposes through China (People's Rep.), Hong

Kong (SAR China) and Macao (SAR China) are considered as third

countries, as they have their own entry regulations.



Note: TWOV is not intended for those holding stand-by tickets,

e.g. airline employees or other passengers traveling on

industry discount.



CHECK [[TINEWS]] - CHECK LATEST NEWS AND UPDATES ON TRAVEL

INFORMATION



19 Apr 2017 / 21:53 [UTC]

Which means your next flight after landing in China, can't be back to the same country/SAR from which you came. Thus LAX-PVG/PVG-NRT-LAX qualifies. It doesn't say the final ticketed destination country must be different from departure. Just the the next country you fly to cant be the same as which yiu came from. All TWOV is designed to look at is where flight a comes from and where flight b departs to.

aama	Apr 19, 2017 4:39 pm

The Jackson 5 said it already in "ABC":

It's easy as 1, 2, 3

1. The country that one is entering China from

2. China

3. The country that one is departing from China to

#1 and #3 not being the same country.

OP I do hope that you get fully reimbursed for your added expenses from AA. Best of luck!

SJOGuy

Apr 19, 2017 5:00 pm

The system bears mentioning a couple of other points:

For TWOV purposes, China cares only about the plane that brings you into the country and the one that flies you out of the country. What happens before and after that is not the issue.

LAX-NRT-PEK-LAX brings you from Japan and takes you to USA.

Hong Kong, Macau, and Taiwan are treated as three separate countries for TWOV purposes.

IggySD

Apr 19, 2017 5:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonNYC (Post 28201365)

Easily-- because I know what I'm talking about.

Ask around :)

Yeah, there's close to zero chance of an NDA. When this happened to me in January I requested a refund through the automatic system. When CS emailed me back apologizing for the situation a day after it occurred I asked them to look into the refund and give me an estimated timeline and they replied the next day that they had resubmitted it and it should process soon. I think I had it within a week. That part was straightforward and I received no pushback at all. I am EXP so don't know if that had any impact but if so I expect that it just led to faster resolution rather than a different outcome.

muishkin

Apr 19, 2017 5:46 pm

I don't see why the airlines could not come together and built a better decision support software where all it needs to know is your full travel itinerary information including the date and whether or not you plan to enter the country. The input travel itinerary could consists of multiple reservations or a single reservation (however many you wish) all pulled from some global distribution system. For example, the input to the software would be the sequence: (JFK,date,N/A), (NRT,date,no), (HKG,date,yes), (PEK,date,no)....,(Airport#N,date,yes), your passport, and the output would be a set of VISA requirements for each airport in the itinerary i.e. (JFK,no),(NRT,no),(HKG,no),(PEK,no),...(Airport#N, no).

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