Originally Posted by nutwpinut
(Post 28200060)
I wonder if it is a translation issue? China may be using a word that translates to transit when that is not the exact meaning.
If you read through these posts you will know I have been for the OP the whole time, but I can understand where the opposition are coming from. No need to bash them. It's good information to find out what the problem is and hopefully how to fix it. This thread is probably a microcosm of what is happening. Most people are good with it, but others are stuck on the legal wording. What can we do to get the legal wording changed? While I think an experienced AA supervisor should have been aware of all the subtleties of China's TWOV, for the inexperienced check-in agent, absent any other information, he or she would have fell back on the common meaning of transit and denied OP boarding. It's a classic case of two people with different internal semantics for the same word. There is no one to blame here. But a better decision support tool can be a solution i.e. upgrading Timatic to make it more intelligent. |
Originally Posted by Myyra
(Post 28199836)
It does not have to be a logical transit. SEA - PVG - YVR is perfectly acceptable - that is, flying 11,000 miles to connect between two cities 150 miles apart.
On the other hand, if someone gets rejected because the Chinese immigration officer applies a traditional interpretation, then AA is on the hook and AA will look to the GA. If you were the GA, would you want to be the one who inputted NRT as the destination in Timatic under OP's itinerary? I don't think its fair to describe this agent as a rogue agent. |
Originally Posted by muishkin
(Post 28200103)
Thank you! That is what I've been arguing for the last few posts.
While I think an experienced AA supervisor should have been aware of all the subtleties of China's TWOV, for the inexperienced check-in agent, absent any other information, he or she would have fell back on the common meaning of transit and denied OP boarding. There is no one to blame here. But a better decision support tool can be a solution i.e. upgrading Timatic to make it more intelligent. The airline could have called immigration in shanghai. They could have called their own office in China. They could have boarded the passenger and asked the passenger to sign a waiver incurring costs in the event they had to be transported back. They could have suggested the passenger buy a fully refundable ticket to Hong Kong (or wherever was cheapest) rather than reissue the existing ticket. But they had their mind made up the passenger wasn't gonna fly. |
Originally Posted by LHR/MEL/Europe FF
(Post 28200159)
There is blame here. The agent was in error. The agent decided to take it on themselves to define and declare what was, and what wasn't a transit or an onward journey to a third country. On that basis they didnt use TIMATIC correctly, and instead only got the results out of TIMATIC that they wanted (ie visa required).
I do agree with you that the agent could have been more patient and pursued this more with a more knowledgeable authority. |
Originally Posted by C17PSGR
(Post 28200113)
Perhaps .... but the practical fact is that its really up to the Chinese immigration officer letting someone in. In some cases, they might exercise their discretion to interpret the visa waiver policy to apply a more common sense or traditional view of a destination and transit point. If they did, then they would treat PVG as the destination, rather than a transit point. From those postings, sounds like many posters have experience with Chinese immigration officers interpreting it in a loose sense. On the other hand, there are certainly individuals who's names will pop up in the computer at Chinese immigration and receive more scrutiny.
On the other hand, if someone gets rejected because the Chinese immigration officer applies a traditional interpretation, then AA is on the hook and AA will look to the GA. If you were the GA, would you want to be the one who inputted NRT as the destination in Timatic under OP's itinerary? I don't think its fair to describe this agent as a rogue agent. Chinese immigration can spend a long time processing a TWOV... sometimes 10 minutes or more these days. They'll check your itinerary with a fine tooth comb, perhaps ring the airline to confirm you're on the flight. They'll photocopy documents, get your phone number, all sorts of things... but illogical/strange routings are not something they even bat an eyelid at (illegal routings yes, but not just something unusual). |
Originally Posted by muishkin
(Post 28200208)
I am not sure any agent, who hasn't had a prior encounter with the OP's situation, would be able to deduce that NRT should be entered as the destination unless TIMATIC explicitly contains such suggestions. In the agent's mind, absent knowledge of the nuance, OP's itinerary looked just like a round trip with the destination being Shanghai.
I do agree with you that the agent could have been more patient and pursued this more with a more knowledgeable authority. |
Originally Posted by LHR/MEL/Europe FF
(Post 28200218)
Perhaps because of all the complexities you describe Chinese immigration have simplified things back to the bare basics. They simply look at your inbound and outbound flights. Different countries? You're good to go.
Chinese immigration can spend a long time processing a TWOV... sometimes 10 minutes or more these days. They'll check your itinerary with a fine tooth comb, perhaps ring the airline to confirm you're on the flight. They'll photocopy documents, get your phone number, all sorts of things... but illogical/strange routings are not something they even bat an eyelid at (illegal routings yes, but not just something unusual). |
Originally Posted by TOMFORD
(Post 28194946)
China's TWOV requires you're transiting through China to a destination other than your origination. AA did the right thing, unless China embassy officially changes the TWOV terms.
All China (and most other TWOV, including Argentina, FWIW) cares about is that the inbound flight and outbound flight are to different countries and that the time in country is under whatever limit is established. And the OP 100% satisfied those conditions.
Originally Posted by moondog
(Post 28195353)
PRC immigration does not care about how airplane tickets are constructed. They ONLY care about whether you fly in from one country and fly out to a different country.
It does not matter if your stay in China and/or country 3 is <20 minutes. Simply put, based on the OP's account, AA was 100% wrong in denying him boarding, full stop.
Originally Posted by JonNYC
(Post 28195392)
You're talking about what "PRC immigration" cares or does not care about-- I am not:
Originally Posted by JonNYC
(Post 28195392)
Additionally, I'm just passing along another person's comments, which you should respect, even if you don't agree with them. I have stated at every step here that my guidance (which is to pay for the #$%&@ing visa :)-- others agree,) is formed by information and experiences I'm able to gather on the subject.
Originally Posted by muishkin
(Post 28200259)
Hmm interesting. Does that mean an itinerary of JFK-NRT-PVG-JFK also satisfies the TWOV?
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Originally Posted by muishkin
(Post 28200259)
Hmm interesting. Does that mean an itinerary of JFK-NRT-PVG-JFK also satisfies the TWOV?
|
Originally Posted by muishkin
(Post 28200259)
Hmm interesting. Does that mean an itinerary of JFK-NRT-PVG-JFK also satisfies the TWOV?
Suffice to say; I expected that PEK Immigration control - may not let me in. Expected worst case to continue home, OR back track to HKG and spend more time there. Burden was on me. |
Originally Posted by nutwpinut
(Post 28200060)
The issue seems to be Timatic and IATA. From my understanding it will have to be the airlines to ask IATA to change Timatic or put out a response. How does that happen?
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Originally Posted by C17PSGR
(Post 28200113)
Perhaps .... but the practical fact is that its really up to the Chinese immigration officer letting someone in. In some cases, they might exercise their discretion to interpret the visa waiver policy to apply a more common sense or traditional view of a destination and transit point
You presume the immigration officer is reading the same text as we are. It's more likely they have a different set of text and thus not a problem: "Does traveler have an onward ticket to a different country than the one they arrived at?" |
Originally Posted by C17PSGR
(Post 28200113)
On the other hand, if someone gets rejected because the Chinese immigration officer applies a traditional "interpretation', then AA is on the hook and AA will look to the GA. |
The text about USA and GU/MP should be improved. Someone may interpret that TWOV involving any point in the USA is invalid. In fact it was added after someone tried USA-PVG-GUM which they didn't want to allow.
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Originally Posted by moondog
(Post 28200323)
The rules are extremely well defined and are bear bones simple, so there is little if any room for "interpretation".
A - China - B OK A - China -( B-A ) OK A- China - A NO |
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