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-   -   144 TWOV China- AA Issues/Questions (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/american-airlines-aadvantage/1837368-144-twov-china-aa-issues-questions.html)

muishkin Apr 19, 2017 8:07 am


Originally Posted by nutwpinut (Post 28200060)
I wonder if it is a translation issue? China may be using a word that translates to transit when that is not the exact meaning.

If you read through these posts you will know I have been for the OP the whole time, but I can understand where the opposition are coming from. No need to bash them. It's good information to find out what the problem is and hopefully how to fix it. This thread is probably a microcosm of what is happening. Most people are good with it, but others are stuck on the legal wording. What can we do to get the legal wording changed?

Thank you! That is what I've been arguing for the last few posts.

While I think an experienced AA supervisor should have been aware of all the subtleties of China's TWOV, for the inexperienced check-in agent, absent any other information, he or she would have fell back on the common meaning of transit and denied OP boarding. It's a classic case of two people with different internal semantics for the same word.

There is no one to blame here. But a better decision support tool can be a solution i.e. upgrading Timatic to make it more intelligent.

C17PSGR Apr 19, 2017 8:09 am


Originally Posted by Myyra (Post 28199836)
It does not have to be a logical transit. SEA - PVG - YVR is perfectly acceptable - that is, flying 11,000 miles to connect between two cities 150 miles apart.

Perhaps .... but the practical fact is that its really up to the Chinese immigration officer letting someone in. In some cases, they might exercise their discretion to interpret the visa waiver policy to apply a more common sense or traditional view of a destination and transit point. If they did, then they would treat PVG as the destination, rather than a transit point. From those postings, sounds like many posters have experience with Chinese immigration officers interpreting it in a loose sense. On the other hand, there are certainly individuals who's names will pop up in the computer at Chinese immigration and receive more scrutiny.

On the other hand, if someone gets rejected because the Chinese immigration officer applies a traditional interpretation, then AA is on the hook and AA will look to the GA. If you were the GA, would you want to be the one who inputted NRT as the destination in Timatic under OP's itinerary? I don't think its fair to describe this agent as a rogue agent.

LHR/MEL/Europe FF Apr 19, 2017 8:19 am


Originally Posted by muishkin (Post 28200103)
Thank you! That is what I've been arguing for the last few posts.

While I think an experienced AA supervisor should have been aware of all the subtleties of China's TWOV, for the inexperienced check-in agent, absent any other information, he or she would have fell back on the common meaning of transit and denied OP boarding.

There is no one to blame here. But a better decision support tool can be a solution i.e. upgrading Timatic to make it more intelligent.

There is blame here. The agent was in error. The agent decided to take it on themselves to define and declare what was, and what wasn't a transit or an onward journey to a third country. On that basis they didnt use TIMATIC correctly, and instead only got the results out of TIMATIC that they wanted (ie visa required).

The airline could have called immigration in shanghai. They could have called their own office in China. They could have boarded the passenger and asked the passenger to sign a waiver incurring costs in the event they had to be transported back. They could have suggested the passenger buy a fully refundable ticket to Hong Kong (or wherever was cheapest) rather than reissue the existing ticket.

But they had their mind made up the passenger wasn't gonna fly.

muishkin Apr 19, 2017 8:29 am


Originally Posted by LHR/MEL/Europe FF (Post 28200159)
There is blame here. The agent was in error. The agent decided to take it on themselves to define and declare what was, and what wasn't a transit or an onward journey to a third country. On that basis they didnt use TIMATIC correctly, and instead only got the results out of TIMATIC that they wanted (ie visa required).

I am not sure any agent, who hasn't had a prior encounter with the OP's situation, would be able to deduce that NRT should be entered as the destination unless TIMATIC explicitly contains such suggestions. In the agent's mind, absent knowledge of the nuance, OP's itinerary looked just like a round trip with the destination being Shanghai.

I do agree with you that the agent could have been more patient and pursued this more with a more knowledgeable authority.

LHR/MEL/Europe FF Apr 19, 2017 8:31 am


Originally Posted by C17PSGR (Post 28200113)
Perhaps .... but the practical fact is that its really up to the Chinese immigration officer letting someone in. In some cases, they might exercise their discretion to interpret the visa waiver policy to apply a more common sense or traditional view of a destination and transit point. If they did, then they would treat PVG as the destination, rather than a transit point. From those postings, sounds like many posters have experience with Chinese immigration officers interpreting it in a loose sense. On the other hand, there are certainly individuals who's names will pop up in the computer at Chinese immigration and receive more scrutiny.

On the other hand, if someone gets rejected because the Chinese immigration officer applies a traditional interpretation, then AA is on the hook and AA will look to the GA. If you were the GA, would you want to be the one who inputted NRT as the destination in Timatic under OP's itinerary? I don't think its fair to describe this agent as a rogue agent.

Perhaps because of all the complexities you describe Chinese immigration have simplified things back to the bare basics. They simply look at your inbound and outbound flights. Different countries? You're good to go.

Chinese immigration can spend a long time processing a TWOV... sometimes 10 minutes or more these days. They'll check your itinerary with a fine tooth comb, perhaps ring the airline to confirm you're on the flight. They'll photocopy documents, get your phone number, all sorts of things... but illogical/strange routings are not something they even bat an eyelid at (illegal routings yes, but not just something unusual).

LHR/MEL/Europe FF Apr 19, 2017 8:35 am


Originally Posted by muishkin (Post 28200208)
I am not sure any agent, who hasn't had a prior encounter with the OP's situation, would be able to deduce that NRT should be entered as the destination unless TIMATIC explicitly contains such suggestions. In the agent's mind, absent knowledge of the nuance, OP's itinerary looked just like a round trip with the destination being Shanghai.

I do agree with you that the agent could have been more patient and pursued this more with a more knowledgeable authority.

Yes, but the OP says in their first post that they produced confirmation from the embassy that the itinerary was compliant. That should have prompted the agent to either try again, or to escalate.

muishkin Apr 19, 2017 8:39 am


Originally Posted by LHR/MEL/Europe FF (Post 28200218)
Perhaps because of all the complexities you describe Chinese immigration have simplified things back to the bare basics. They simply look at your inbound and outbound flights. Different countries? You're good to go.

Chinese immigration can spend a long time processing a TWOV... sometimes 10 minutes or more these days. They'll check your itinerary with a fine tooth comb, perhaps ring the airline to confirm you're on the flight. They'll photocopy documents, get your phone number, all sorts of things... but illogical/strange routings are not something they even bat an eyelid at (illegal routings yes, but not just something unusual).

Hmm interesting. Does that mean an itinerary of JFK-NRT-PVG-JFK also satisfies the TWOV?

sbm12 Apr 19, 2017 8:44 am


Originally Posted by TOMFORD (Post 28194946)
China's TWOV requires you're transiting through China to a destination other than your origination. AA did the right thing, unless China embassy officially changes the TWOV terms.

Nope. AA was wrong. The OP's routing is 100% legit.

All China (and most other TWOV, including Argentina, FWIW) cares about is that the inbound flight and outbound flight are to different countries and that the time in country is under whatever limit is established. And the OP 100% satisfied those conditions.

Originally Posted by moondog (Post 28195353)
PRC immigration does not care about how airplane tickets are constructed. They ONLY care about whether you fly in from one country and fly out to a different country.

It does not matter if your stay in China and/or country 3 is <20 minutes.

Simply put, based on the OP's account, AA was 100% wrong in denying him boarding, full stop.

This is correct.


Originally Posted by JonNYC (Post 28195392)
You're talking about what "PRC immigration" cares or does not care about-- I am not:

The theory that it is okay for AA to enforce rules that are not compliant with the immigration policies of the destination is ludicrous. Why would it be acceptable for AA to declare that I need 3 years validity remaining on my US passport for a trip to Paris? That's essentially the same thing as this ruling.


Originally Posted by JonNYC (Post 28195392)
Additionally, I'm just passing along another person's comments, which you should respect, even if you don't agree with them. I have stated at every step here that my guidance (which is to pay for the #$%&@ing visa :)-- others agree,) is formed by information and experiences I'm able to gather on the subject.

Alas, it is poorly informed. If AA is enforcing policy this way then someone needs to reeducate them. Because they're just making crap up.

Originally Posted by muishkin (Post 28200259)
Hmm interesting. Does that mean an itinerary of JFK-NRT-PVG-JFK also satisfies the TWOV?

Yes.

anacapamalibu Apr 19, 2017 8:44 am


Originally Posted by muishkin (Post 28200259)
Hmm interesting. Does that mean an itinerary of JFK-NRT-PVG-JFK also satisfies the TWOV?

^

NickP 1K Apr 19, 2017 8:50 am


Originally Posted by muishkin (Post 28200259)
Hmm interesting. Does that mean an itinerary of JFK-NRT-PVG-JFK also satisfies the TWOV?

I did LAX-HKG-PEK-SFO and CX in HKG denied me (now truth be told I expected it may happen - did a few meetings in HKG across 7 hours, went back to HKG airport and it was caught when checking back in (wasn't able to get the BP for HKG-PEK out of LAX and LAX CX staff mentioned nothing). My PEK-SFO segment was on UA (ticketed on CX ticket number) - CX attempted to change me to be HKG-LAX and asked if I wanted to stay in HKG longer which I thought I would do. However I had UA change my PEK-SFO segment to SAME day - flew to PEK as this satisfied CX as a true transit. Got to PEK - showed my old UA itin, got in with TWOV - changed my UA flight back to 2 days later.

Suffice to say; I expected that PEK Immigration control - may not let me in. Expected worst case to continue home, OR back track to HKG and spend more time there. Burden was on me.

Myyra Apr 19, 2017 8:53 am


Originally Posted by nutwpinut (Post 28200060)
The issue seems to be Timatic and IATA. From my understanding it will have to be the airlines to ask IATA to change Timatic or put out a response. How does that happen?

The airlines can customize what Timatic shows to their agents. But consider that 99% (guessing) of their non-Chinese passengers going to China don't have an eligible itinerary and need a visa. Showing a complex explanation of visa-free transit rules for every single passenger makes the agents' job that much harder and check-in process that much time consuming. It might make sense to let the staff process the regular passengers, and have a knowledgeable employee ready to handle the exceptions. Clearly, there were no knowledgeable employees in place when the OP tried to check in.

nutwpinut Apr 19, 2017 8:55 am


Originally Posted by C17PSGR (Post 28200113)
Perhaps .... but the practical fact is that its really up to the Chinese immigration officer letting someone in. In some cases, they might exercise their discretion to interpret the visa waiver policy to apply a more common sense or traditional view of a destination and transit point

A valid point, but it has never been documented in the years it has been implemented for several hundreds, maybe thousands of trips. Law of averages would presume someone would have been denied by now and talked about it. The USA is only a fraction of these trips and it's been denied by FAs multiple times, but zero times by border guards in China.

You presume the immigration officer is reading the same text as we are. It's more likely they have a different set of text and thus not a problem: "Does traveler have an onward ticket to a different country than the one they arrived at?"

moondog Apr 19, 2017 8:56 am


Originally Posted by C17PSGR (Post 28200113)

On the other hand, if someone gets rejected because the Chinese immigration officer applies a traditional "interpretation', then AA is on the hook and AA will look to the GA.

The rules are extremely well defined and are bear bones simple, so there is little if any room for "interpretation".

HkCaGu Apr 19, 2017 9:29 am

The text about USA and GU/MP should be improved. Someone may interpret that TWOV involving any point in the USA is invalid. In fact it was added after someone tried USA-PVG-GUM which they didn't want to allow.

anacapamalibu Apr 19, 2017 9:33 am


Originally Posted by moondog (Post 28200323)
The rules are extremely well defined and are bear bones simple, so there is little if any room for "interpretation".

Black and white...

A - China - B OK
A - China -( B-A ) OK
A- China - A NO


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