ARCHIVE: Speculation: Possible Routes (Flights) and Hubs, Discussion - 2015 on
#151
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I'd also guess LAX-BNE or LAX-MEL, though there have been rumblings of DFW-MEL. DFW-MEL is only about 250 miles shorter than ORD-SYD though so there might be some weight penalty, but I think it would make more sense than ORD-SYD. There are just so few markets served only out of ORD compared to DFW, and DFW is more convenient to a lot of larger markets served from both, like IAH/MCO/MIA/Central America.
#152
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But assuming a second Australia route would be out of LAX, any idea if it's likely to replace/augment existing QF service (MEL or BNE) or allow a new city (operated by either QF or AA)? CBR and CNS seem like the least-implausible new cities for LAX service, and both seem like long shots; both would probably have to be 787, not 77W/747/A380 markets, which would argue for AA operating.
#153
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I certainly agree re ORD-SYD. It's possible that AA/QF think a 789 is a better match to SYD-DFW than the current A380, if a 789 can do that nonstop (I don't know). QF did upgauge the route from a 747, but that may have more an indication that the loads/revenue on the 747 were good enough so that the ability to do it nonstop both ways outweighed the A380 being too much capacity. If that's the case, an AA 789 makes sense. If not, seems unlikely. I know the A380s are pretty heavily weight restricted such that they have to keep 100 empty seats in coach (which makes for a relatively comfortable ride in the back). If AA replaces some or all of the SYD-DFW frequencies, QF could up SFO from 6x to 7x weekly, for example.
But assuming a second Australia route would be out of LAX, any idea if it's likely to replace/augment existing QF service (MEL or BNE) or allow a new city (operated by either QF or AA)? CBR and CNS seem like the least-implausible new cities for LAX service, and both seem like long shots; both would probably have to be 787, not 77W/747/A380 markets, which would argue for AA operating.
But assuming a second Australia route would be out of LAX, any idea if it's likely to replace/augment existing QF service (MEL or BNE) or allow a new city (operated by either QF or AA)? CBR and CNS seem like the least-implausible new cities for LAX service, and both seem like long shots; both would probably have to be 787, not 77W/747/A380 markets, which would argue for AA operating.
QF still needs a 747 daily flight to LAX in order to fly their LAX-JFK-LAX flight (I doubt they want to go A380 on this), which is normally the LAX-BNE plane. So, I would guess LAX-MEL, replacing the extra 747 frequency that QF currently operates on LAX-MEL.
#154
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I would love to see something like LAX-Brisbane-Adelaide. As well as LAX-Melbourne.
As for ORD-SYD, it has very little market purpose. Sure, it makes it easier for someone traveling from MSN to SYD. But there are probably very few people trying to do so to begin with. And most of the larger cities in the eastern 1/3 of the U.S. already have nonstop service to LAX (and DFW). Plus, the additional CASMs for such a long route would be very hard to justify.
As for ORD-SYD, it has very little market purpose. Sure, it makes it easier for someone traveling from MSN to SYD. But there are probably very few people trying to do so to begin with. And most of the larger cities in the eastern 1/3 of the U.S. already have nonstop service to LAX (and DFW). Plus, the additional CASMs for such a long route would be very hard to justify.
#155
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I'd be interested in seeing some more diverse service to western Europe from JFK. Can they not make AMS or BRU work? Or any city in Germany (FRA? MUC? HAM? TXL?) Nothing at all in Northern Europe (CPH, ARN)?
American serves LHR, ZRH, BCN, MAD, FCO, EDI, DUB, MXP, MAN, BHX, and CDG. That's 11 destinations in summer 2016.
Delta covers DUB, SNN, MAN, EDI, LHR, CDG, BRU, AMS, BCN, AGP, MAD, NCE, MXP, VCE, FCO, ATH, ZRH, FRA, CPH, ARN, PRG, IST, even KEF and TLV as a bonus. That's 24 destinations in summer 2016.
United covers DUB, SNN, GLA, EDI, MAN, BHX, LHR, CDG, BRU, AMS, GVA, ZRH, BCN, FCO, LIS, HAM, FRA, TXL, MUC, MXP, FCO, VCE, ATH, OSL, ARN, and TLV. That's 26 destinations in summer 2016.
I get that the old AA didn't make NYC O&D a goal, but they're going to force us NYC folks to jump ship if they don't start putting a little emphasis on this market. Zero Asia service! And just EZE and GRU?
American serves LHR, ZRH, BCN, MAD, FCO, EDI, DUB, MXP, MAN, BHX, and CDG. That's 11 destinations in summer 2016.
Delta covers DUB, SNN, MAN, EDI, LHR, CDG, BRU, AMS, BCN, AGP, MAD, NCE, MXP, VCE, FCO, ATH, ZRH, FRA, CPH, ARN, PRG, IST, even KEF and TLV as a bonus. That's 24 destinations in summer 2016.
United covers DUB, SNN, GLA, EDI, MAN, BHX, LHR, CDG, BRU, AMS, GVA, ZRH, BCN, FCO, LIS, HAM, FRA, TXL, MUC, MXP, FCO, VCE, ATH, OSL, ARN, and TLV. That's 26 destinations in summer 2016.
I get that the old AA didn't make NYC O&D a goal, but they're going to force us NYC folks to jump ship if they don't start putting a little emphasis on this market. Zero Asia service! And just EZE and GRU?
#156
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Was NZ AKL-ORD. The 787-9 just doesn't have commercially viable range for ORD-SYD, and DFW is a better connecting hub anyway.
I'd also guess LAX-BNE or LAX-MEL, though there have been rumblings of DFW-MEL. DFW-MEL is only about 250 miles shorter than ORD-SYD though so there might be some weight penalty, but I think it would make more sense than ORD-SYD. There are just so few markets served only out of ORD compared to DFW, and DFW is more convenient to a lot of larger markets served from both, like IAH/MCO/MIA/Central America.
I'd also guess LAX-BNE or LAX-MEL, though there have been rumblings of DFW-MEL. DFW-MEL is only about 250 miles shorter than ORD-SYD though so there might be some weight penalty, but I think it would make more sense than ORD-SYD. There are just so few markets served only out of ORD compared to DFW, and DFW is more convenient to a lot of larger markets served from both, like IAH/MCO/MIA/Central America.
I certainly agree re ORD-SYD. It's possible that AA/QF think a 789 is a better match to SYD-DFW than the current A380, if a 789 can do that nonstop (I don't know). QF did upgauge the route from a 747, but that may have more an indication that the loads/revenue on the 747 were good enough so that the ability to do it nonstop both ways outweighed the A380 being too much capacity. If that's the case, an AA 789 makes sense. If not, seems unlikely. I know the A380s are pretty heavily weight restricted such that they have to keep 100 empty seats in coach (which makes for a relatively comfortable ride in the back). If AA replaces some or all of the SYD-DFW frequencies, QF could up SFO from 6x to 7x weekly, for example.
But assuming a second Australia route would be out of LAX, any idea if it's likely to replace/augment existing QF service (MEL or BNE) or allow a new city (operated by either QF or AA)? CBR and CNS seem like the least-implausible new cities for LAX service, and both seem like long shots; both would probably have to be 787, not 77W/747/A380 markets, which would argue for AA operating.
But assuming a second Australia route would be out of LAX, any idea if it's likely to replace/augment existing QF service (MEL or BNE) or allow a new city (operated by either QF or AA)? CBR and CNS seem like the least-implausible new cities for LAX service, and both seem like long shots; both would probably have to be 787, not 77W/747/A380 markets, which would argue for AA operating.
Based on comments from management, it sounds like all future expansion across the Pacific will be from LAX, with the exception of AA looking to add a second HND frequency. I seriously doubt AA would contemplate adding ADL/CBR before QF. I doubt CBR would sustain an even less than daily nonstop to North America but ADL is definitely a route QF may consider with the 787-9, especially if its lower density.
As for AA, I think either LAX-BNE or LAX-MEL would be the next. BNE is only served by LAX on QF/VA but zero competition on the US side while MEL has UA's LAX-MEL to compete with but VA ended their LAX-MEL nonstop a few years ago. I'd give a slight edge to LAX-MEL but I wouldn't be surprised if its LAX-BNE. I do see AA operating both routes four years from now.
#157
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That strikes me as very unlikely. Why do a tag when QF already serves ADL well via any of the three US gateways? There's no utilization reason, since timing allows planes flying USA-Australia-USA to sit on the ground for as little time as it takes to turn them around anyway (unlike Australia-USA-Australia, at least with the usual flight timing).
Even MSN already has good one-stop service via DFW. It's only a handful of very small markets that would benefit from ORD-SYD. I think we all agree that that idea makes no sense.
The main advantage of switching more AA/QF Australia flights to AA is probably utilization: AA doesn't have to either sit their planes in Australia for many hours or find a tag to keep them busy, whereas QF does in the US (west coast; much less so at DFW).
That utilization argument is, to me, yet another strong reason that I expect any additional AA-operated Oz flights to be from LAX.
As for ORD-SYD, it has very little market purpose. Sure, it makes it easier for someone traveling from MSN to SYD. But there are probably very few people trying to do so to begin with. And most of the larger cities in the eastern 1/3 of the U.S. already have nonstop service to LAX (and DFW). Plus, the additional CASMs for such a long route would be very hard to justify.
The main advantage of switching more AA/QF Australia flights to AA is probably utilization: AA doesn't have to either sit their planes in Australia for many hours or find a tag to keep them busy, whereas QF does in the US (west coast; much less so at DFW).
That utilization argument is, to me, yet another strong reason that I expect any additional AA-operated Oz flights to be from LAX.
#158
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That strikes me as very unlikely. Why do a tag when QF already serves ADL well via any of the three US gateways? There's no utilization reason, since timing allows planes flying USA-Australia-USA to sit on the ground for as little time as it takes to turn them around anyway (unlike Australia-USA-Australia, at least with the usual flight timing).
#159
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I'd be interested in seeing some more diverse service to western Europe from JFK. Can they not make AMS or BRU work? Or any city in Germany (FRA? MUC? HAM? TXL?) Nothing at all in Northern Europe (CPH, ARN)?
American serves LHR, ZRH, BCN, MAD, FCO, EDI, DUB, MXP, MAN, BHX, and CDG. That's 11 destinations in summer 2016.
Delta covers DUB, SNN, MAN, EDI, LHR, CDG, BRU, AMS, BCN, AGP, MAD, NCE, MXP, VCE, FCO, ATH, ZRH, FRA, CPH, ARN, PRG, IST, even KEF and TLV as a bonus. That's 24 destinations in summer 2016.
United covers DUB, SNN, GLA, EDI, MAN, BHX, LHR, CDG, BRU, AMS, GVA, ZRH, BCN, FCO, LIS, HAM, FRA, TXL, MUC, MXP, FCO, VCE, ATH, OSL, ARN, and TLV. That's 26 destinations in summer 2016.
I get that the old AA didn't make NYC O&D a goal, but they're going to force us NYC folks to jump ship if they don't start putting a little emphasis on this market. Zero Asia service! And just EZE and GRU?
American serves LHR, ZRH, BCN, MAD, FCO, EDI, DUB, MXP, MAN, BHX, and CDG. That's 11 destinations in summer 2016.
Delta covers DUB, SNN, MAN, EDI, LHR, CDG, BRU, AMS, BCN, AGP, MAD, NCE, MXP, VCE, FCO, ATH, ZRH, FRA, CPH, ARN, PRG, IST, even KEF and TLV as a bonus. That's 24 destinations in summer 2016.
United covers DUB, SNN, GLA, EDI, MAN, BHX, LHR, CDG, BRU, AMS, GVA, ZRH, BCN, FCO, LIS, HAM, FRA, TXL, MUC, MXP, FCO, VCE, ATH, OSL, ARN, and TLV. That's 26 destinations in summer 2016.
I get that the old AA didn't make NYC O&D a goal, but they're going to force us NYC folks to jump ship if they don't start putting a little emphasis on this market. Zero Asia service! And just EZE and GRU?
#160
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#161
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I'd be interested in seeing some more diverse service to western Europe from JFK. Can they not make AMS or BRU work? Or any city in Germany (FRA? MUC? HAM? TXL?) Nothing at all in Northern Europe (CPH, ARN)?
American serves LHR, ZRH, BCN, MAD, FCO, EDI, DUB, MXP, MAN, BHX, and CDG. That's 11 destinations in summer 2016.
Delta covers DUB, SNN, MAN, EDI, LHR, CDG, BRU, AMS, BCN, AGP, MAD, NCE, MXP, VCE, FCO, ATH, ZRH, FRA, CPH, ARN, PRG, IST, even KEF and TLV as a bonus. That's 24 destinations in summer 2016.
United covers DUB, SNN, GLA, EDI, MAN, BHX, LHR, CDG, BRU, AMS, GVA, ZRH, BCN, FCO, LIS, HAM, FRA, TXL, MUC, MXP, FCO, VCE, ATH, OSL, ARN, and TLV. That's 26 destinations in summer 2016.
I get that the old AA didn't make NYC O&D a goal, but they're going to force us NYC folks to jump ship if they don't start putting a little emphasis on this market. Zero Asia service! And just EZE and GRU?
American serves LHR, ZRH, BCN, MAD, FCO, EDI, DUB, MXP, MAN, BHX, and CDG. That's 11 destinations in summer 2016.
Delta covers DUB, SNN, MAN, EDI, LHR, CDG, BRU, AMS, BCN, AGP, MAD, NCE, MXP, VCE, FCO, ATH, ZRH, FRA, CPH, ARN, PRG, IST, even KEF and TLV as a bonus. That's 24 destinations in summer 2016.
United covers DUB, SNN, GLA, EDI, MAN, BHX, LHR, CDG, BRU, AMS, GVA, ZRH, BCN, FCO, LIS, HAM, FRA, TXL, MUC, MXP, FCO, VCE, ATH, OSL, ARN, and TLV. That's 26 destinations in summer 2016.
I get that the old AA didn't make NYC O&D a goal, but they're going to force us NYC folks to jump ship if they don't start putting a little emphasis on this market. Zero Asia service! And just EZE and GRU?
AA also relies heavily on partners for international travel in general. They operate the least amount of flights to Asia out of the big three. They also heavily rely on BA connections at LHR and JL connections at NRT for most of their European and Asian traffic. Their strategy is Origin-AA hub-Partner hub-destination. Some of the new routes they are offering show that they may be shifting from this strategy, which would be good news.
#162
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So having to connect at MEL/SYD/BNE to get to/from ADE and the U.S. is somehow a better alternative to flying direct ADE-BNE-LAX as part of a tag-on service? AA serves LAX-JFK quite well with multiple frequencies. But QF still flies a tag-on flight on this route.
#163
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QF also does well with the cargo on LAX-JFK, and it utilizes a frame that would otherwise just sit at LAX all day accruing parking charges. AA can easily fly LAX-BNE-LAX without having the plane sit at BNE all day, so this isn't a concern. I wouldn't be surprised to see AA take over LAX-BNE for QF in the long term, depending on how QF wants to get a plane to LAX for LAX-JFK-LAX, as that is normally the BNE flight's plane as it is now.
#164
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QF also does well with the cargo on LAX-JFK, and it utilizes a frame that would otherwise just sit at LAX all day accruing parking charges. AA can easily fly LAX-BNE-LAX without having the plane sit at BNE all day, so this isn't a concern.
#165
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Adding a BNE-ADE-BNE tag-on wouldn't require that aircraft to sit on the ground for much time in Australia, either. That would only be an issue if AA would want that BNE-LAX segment to arrive first thing in the morning. If they are OK with that flight arriving around noon, it would work fine.
AA's choices are a) plane continues to ADL (not ADE), spending minimal time on the ground but delaying the flight back to LAX and thus the next lucrative long haul that plane could be operating or b) plane turns around without a tag, also spending minimal time on the ground.
That's just the way the flight times and time zones work to Oz.
ADL is a much, much smaller city than SYD or MEL. There's just not the demand for AA to delay the return of a 77W or 789 to the US. The idea makes no sense at all.