Refundable, fully flexible tickets - but with penalties / fees
Jan 3, 2018, 4:21 pm
#91
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,574
It does seem that he is trying to blame AA for his missing the information which he admits to knowing how to find
Jan 3, 2018, 5:14 pm
#92
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 62
It was booked in Business (I).
If there was a statement near the top warning of penalties, I would have been aware. All it said was refundable. No asteriks, not marks, nothing.
While it may be legal, I believe this practice is deceptive. Even the budget carriers make their fee structure easily accessible and out in the open. Why does American feel theyt have to hide these fees in the small print? Every other airline states if there would be charges associated with cancellation. They might only go into detail in the fine print but at least they warn you.
I had to cancel another flight on a different airline but I knew upfront what the cancellation fees would be.
If there was a statement near the top warning of penalties, I would have been aware. All it said was refundable. No asteriks, not marks, nothing.
While it may be legal, I believe this practice is deceptive. Even the budget carriers make their fee structure easily accessible and out in the open. Why does American feel theyt have to hide these fees in the small print? Every other airline states if there would be charges associated with cancellation. They might only go into detail in the fine print but at least they warn you.
I had to cancel another flight on a different airline but I knew upfront what the cancellation fees would be.
Last edited by 1Bag1World; Jan 3, 2018 at 7:13 pm
Jan 3, 2018, 5:25 pm
#93
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: New York
Programs: AA, CX, Hyatt, Marriott
Posts: 1,484
I have never seen I was marketed as refundable or flexible.
From a dummy LAX - HND reservation for fare code I:
PENALTIES - CANCELLATIONS ANY TIME CHARGE USD 500.00 FOR CANCEL/REFUND. CHILD/INFANT DISCOUNTS APPLY. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. IN THE CASE OF THE DEATH OF THE PASSENGER/OR A TRAVELING COMPANION/ THE SERVICE CHARGE MAY BE WAIVED OR THE TICKET REFUNDED. VISIT AA.COM FOR DETAIL ----- FOR TRAVEL AGENCY BOOKINGS MADE IN MEXICO / THE CARIBBEAN / CENTRAL AND SOUTH AMERICA - AA WILL ASSESS A USD 25.00 FEE ON ANY UNTICKETED RESERVATION NOT CANCELED BEFORE DEPARTURE. ----- CANCELLATION MUST BE MADE PRIOR TO THE RESERVED FLIGHT. IN CASE OF NO-SHOW A NO-SHOW FEE OF USD400 WILL APPLY IN ADDITION TO THE CANCELLATION CHARGE. AND - ANY TIME CHARGE USD 400.00 FOR NO-SHOW. CHILD/INFANT DISCOUNTS APPLY. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. IN THE CASE OF THE DEATH OF THE PASSENGER/OR A TRAVELING COMPANION/ THE SERVICE CHARGE MAY BE WAIVED OR THE TICKET REFUNDED. VISIT AA.COM FOR DETAIL ----- FOR TRAVEL AGENCY BOOKINGS MADE IN MEXICO / THE CARIBBEAN / CENTRAL AND SOUTH AMERICA - AA WILL ASSESS A USD 25.00 FEE ON ANY UNTICKETED RESERVATION NOT CANCELED BEFORE DEPARTURE. ----- CANCELLATION MUST BE MADE PRIOR TO THE RESERVED FLIGHT. IN CASE OF NO-SHOW A NO-SHOW FEE OF USD400 WILL APPLY IN ADDITION TO THE CANCELLATION CHARGE. CHANGES ANY TIME CHARGE USD 400.00. CHILD/INFANT DISCOUNTS APPLY. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. ---- THE ORIGINAL NON REFUNDABLE AMOUNT REMAINS NON REFUNDABLE. CHANGES PERMITTED PRIOR TO TICKETED DEPARTURETIME OF EACH FLIGHT. ' ---- IN CASE OF NO-SHOW A NO-SHOW FEE OF USD400 WILL APPLY IN ADDITION TO THE CHANGE FEE PLUS ANY ADDITIONAL COLLECTION AS APPLICABLE. ---- TICKETS AT THESE FARES MAY NOT BE REVALIDATED. TICKETS MUST BE REISSUED. FARE DIFFERENCE AND CHANGE FEE MUST BE PAID AND TICKETS MUST BE REISSUED WHEN ITINERARY IS REBOOKED. ---- THE CHANGE FEE APPLIES PER TRANSACTION AND PERSON. A CHANGE IS A ROUTING / OR DATE / OR FLIGHT MODIFICATION. CHANGE IS PERMITTED WITHIN TICKET VALIDITY OF ORIGINAL TICKET. ----------------------------------------------- WHERE THIS FARE IS COMBINED WITH ANOTHER FARE AND ONLY ONE FARE COMPONENT IS CHANGED THE PENALTY CONDITIONS OF THE CHANGED FARE COMPONENT WILL APPLY. WHEN MORE THAN ONE FARE COMPONENT IS BEING CHANGED THE HIGHEST PENALTY OF ALL CHANGED FARE COMPONENTS WILL APPLY. ----------------------------------------------- WHEN THE NEW ITINERARY RESULTS IN A HIGHER FARE THE DIFFERENCE WILL BE ADD COLLECTED AND THE CHANGE FEE WILL APPLY. ---- WHEN THE NEW ITINERARY RESULTS IN A LOWER FARE THE DIFFERENCE WILL BE REFUNDED TO THE ORIGINAL FORM OF PAYMENT AND THE CHANGE FEE WILL APPLY. ------------------------------------------------- CALCULATION FOR REISSUES //CHANGES BEFORE OUTBOUND DEPARTURE// WHEN THE FIRST FARE COMPONENT IS CHANGED THE ITINERARY MUST BE REPRICED USING CURRENT FARES IN EFFECT ON THE DATE THE TICKET IS REISSUED. ----- WHEN THERE ARE NO CHANGES TO THE FIRST FARE COMPONENT BUT OTHER FARE COMPONENTS ARE CHANGED THE ITINERARY MUST BE REPRICED USING HISTORICAL FARES IN EFFECT ON THE PREVIOUS TICKETING DATE OR CURRENT FARES IN EFFECT ON THE DATE OF TICKET REISSUE WHICHEVER IS LOWER. -------------------------------------------------- //CHANGES AFTER DEPARTURE// THE ITINERARY MUST BE REPRICED USING HISTORICAL FARES IN EFFECT ON THE PREVIOUS TICKETING DATE. -------------------------------------------------- THE NEW ITINERARY MUST MEET ALL RULE PROVISIONS OF THE NEWLY TICKETED FARE - I.E. ADVANCE RESERVATIONS/TICKETING DEADLINE/MINIMUM/MAXIMUM STAY/BOOKING CLASS/SEASONALITY ETC. -------------------------------------------------
From a dummy LAX - HND reservation for fare code I:
PENALTIES - CANCELLATIONS ANY TIME CHARGE USD 500.00 FOR CANCEL/REFUND. CHILD/INFANT DISCOUNTS APPLY. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. IN THE CASE OF THE DEATH OF THE PASSENGER/OR A TRAVELING COMPANION/ THE SERVICE CHARGE MAY BE WAIVED OR THE TICKET REFUNDED. VISIT AA.COM FOR DETAIL ----- FOR TRAVEL AGENCY BOOKINGS MADE IN MEXICO / THE CARIBBEAN / CENTRAL AND SOUTH AMERICA - AA WILL ASSESS A USD 25.00 FEE ON ANY UNTICKETED RESERVATION NOT CANCELED BEFORE DEPARTURE. ----- CANCELLATION MUST BE MADE PRIOR TO THE RESERVED FLIGHT. IN CASE OF NO-SHOW A NO-SHOW FEE OF USD400 WILL APPLY IN ADDITION TO THE CANCELLATION CHARGE. AND - ANY TIME CHARGE USD 400.00 FOR NO-SHOW. CHILD/INFANT DISCOUNTS APPLY. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. IN THE CASE OF THE DEATH OF THE PASSENGER/OR A TRAVELING COMPANION/ THE SERVICE CHARGE MAY BE WAIVED OR THE TICKET REFUNDED. VISIT AA.COM FOR DETAIL ----- FOR TRAVEL AGENCY BOOKINGS MADE IN MEXICO / THE CARIBBEAN / CENTRAL AND SOUTH AMERICA - AA WILL ASSESS A USD 25.00 FEE ON ANY UNTICKETED RESERVATION NOT CANCELED BEFORE DEPARTURE. ----- CANCELLATION MUST BE MADE PRIOR TO THE RESERVED FLIGHT. IN CASE OF NO-SHOW A NO-SHOW FEE OF USD400 WILL APPLY IN ADDITION TO THE CANCELLATION CHARGE. CHANGES ANY TIME CHARGE USD 400.00. CHILD/INFANT DISCOUNTS APPLY. NOTE - TEXT BELOW NOT VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING. ---- THE ORIGINAL NON REFUNDABLE AMOUNT REMAINS NON REFUNDABLE. CHANGES PERMITTED PRIOR TO TICKETED DEPARTURETIME OF EACH FLIGHT. ' ---- IN CASE OF NO-SHOW A NO-SHOW FEE OF USD400 WILL APPLY IN ADDITION TO THE CHANGE FEE PLUS ANY ADDITIONAL COLLECTION AS APPLICABLE. ---- TICKETS AT THESE FARES MAY NOT BE REVALIDATED. TICKETS MUST BE REISSUED. FARE DIFFERENCE AND CHANGE FEE MUST BE PAID AND TICKETS MUST BE REISSUED WHEN ITINERARY IS REBOOKED. ---- THE CHANGE FEE APPLIES PER TRANSACTION AND PERSON. A CHANGE IS A ROUTING / OR DATE / OR FLIGHT MODIFICATION. CHANGE IS PERMITTED WITHIN TICKET VALIDITY OF ORIGINAL TICKET. ----------------------------------------------- WHERE THIS FARE IS COMBINED WITH ANOTHER FARE AND ONLY ONE FARE COMPONENT IS CHANGED THE PENALTY CONDITIONS OF THE CHANGED FARE COMPONENT WILL APPLY. WHEN MORE THAN ONE FARE COMPONENT IS BEING CHANGED THE HIGHEST PENALTY OF ALL CHANGED FARE COMPONENTS WILL APPLY. ----------------------------------------------- WHEN THE NEW ITINERARY RESULTS IN A HIGHER FARE THE DIFFERENCE WILL BE ADD COLLECTED AND THE CHANGE FEE WILL APPLY. ---- WHEN THE NEW ITINERARY RESULTS IN A LOWER FARE THE DIFFERENCE WILL BE REFUNDED TO THE ORIGINAL FORM OF PAYMENT AND THE CHANGE FEE WILL APPLY. ------------------------------------------------- CALCULATION FOR REISSUES //CHANGES BEFORE OUTBOUND DEPARTURE// WHEN THE FIRST FARE COMPONENT IS CHANGED THE ITINERARY MUST BE REPRICED USING CURRENT FARES IN EFFECT ON THE DATE THE TICKET IS REISSUED. ----- WHEN THERE ARE NO CHANGES TO THE FIRST FARE COMPONENT BUT OTHER FARE COMPONENTS ARE CHANGED THE ITINERARY MUST BE REPRICED USING HISTORICAL FARES IN EFFECT ON THE PREVIOUS TICKETING DATE OR CURRENT FARES IN EFFECT ON THE DATE OF TICKET REISSUE WHICHEVER IS LOWER. -------------------------------------------------- //CHANGES AFTER DEPARTURE// THE ITINERARY MUST BE REPRICED USING HISTORICAL FARES IN EFFECT ON THE PREVIOUS TICKETING DATE. -------------------------------------------------- THE NEW ITINERARY MUST MEET ALL RULE PROVISIONS OF THE NEWLY TICKETED FARE - I.E. ADVANCE RESERVATIONS/TICKETING DEADLINE/MINIMUM/MAXIMUM STAY/BOOKING CLASS/SEASONALITY ETC. -------------------------------------------------
Last edited by andersonCooper; Jan 3, 2018 at 5:37 pm
Jan 3, 2018, 5:31 pm
#94
Moderator: American AAdvantage
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
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Posts: 62,948
It was booked in Business (I).
If there was a statement near the top warning of penalties, I would have been aware. All it said was refundable. No asteriks, not marks, nothing.
While it may be legal, I believe this practice is deceptive. Even the budget carriers make their fee structure easily accessible and out in the open. Why does American feel theyt have to hide these fees in the small print? Every other airline states if there would be charges associated with cancellation. They might only go into detail in the fine print but at least they warn you.
I had to cancel another flight on a different airline but I knew upfront what the cancellation fees would be.
If there was a statement near the top warning of penalties, I would have been aware. All it said was refundable. No asteriks, not marks, nothing.
While it may be legal, I believe this practice is deceptive. Even the budget carriers make their fee structure easily accessible and out in the open. Why does American feel theyt have to hide these fees in the small print? Every other airline states if there would be charges associated with cancellation. They might only go into detail in the fine print but at least they warn you.
I had to cancel another flight on a different airline but I knew upfront what the cancellation fees would be.
I save often thousands of dollars, and I can choose to “self insure” or buy trip interruption and cancellation insurance for just the nonrefundable charges and save a lot on the cost of insuring the full price. Or, take out a credit card with TCII.
Jan 3, 2018, 6:14 pm
#95
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
What about this from post #93 ? Perhaps yours was different, but larger font and bolded language at the start of the fare rule strikes me as hard to miss and hard to complaint about as deceptive.
From a dummy LAX - HND reservation for fare code I:
PENALTIES - CANCELLATIONS ANY TIME CHARGE USD 500.00 FOR CANCEL/REFUND.
From a dummy LAX - HND reservation for fare code I:
PENALTIES - CANCELLATIONS ANY TIME CHARGE USD 500.00 FOR CANCEL/REFUND.
Jan 3, 2018, 7:22 pm
#96
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 62
PENALTIES - CANCELLATIONS ANY TIME CHARGE USD 500.00 FOR CANCEL/REFUND.
That line was nowhere on the page I booked. I would have seen that. It wasn't there.
I guess to all of you airline defenders it means that every passenger has to learn every fare class on every airline they book. Interestingtly, I just booked tickets on Jetblue. Right up front, easily visible, was information on cancellation. The above line was NOWHERE on my booking page. I did not take a photo of the page because I would hope the airline would be up front A dummy reservation, and I tried one as well, looked nothing like the one I made. In the fare box under business class was the fee and the words "REFUNDABLE". Nothing noting that there was a fee to the refundable fare.
Yes, I was wrong. I should have perused every word and not "trusted" that refundable means the same thing to an airline as it does to every other english speaking human being. Yes, what AA did was perfectly legal. But was it good business? Are they really distilling trust in their non-expert passengers who may not look at the super fine print? It is deceptive.
That line was nowhere on the page I booked. I would have seen that. It wasn't there.
I guess to all of you airline defenders it means that every passenger has to learn every fare class on every airline they book. Interestingtly, I just booked tickets on Jetblue. Right up front, easily visible, was information on cancellation. The above line was NOWHERE on my booking page. I did not take a photo of the page because I would hope the airline would be up front A dummy reservation, and I tried one as well, looked nothing like the one I made. In the fare box under business class was the fee and the words "REFUNDABLE". Nothing noting that there was a fee to the refundable fare.
Yes, I was wrong. I should have perused every word and not "trusted" that refundable means the same thing to an airline as it does to every other english speaking human being. Yes, what AA did was perfectly legal. But was it good business? Are they really distilling trust in their non-expert passengers who may not look at the super fine print? It is deceptive.
Jan 3, 2018, 7:55 pm
#97
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: New York
Programs: AA, CX, Hyatt, Marriott
Posts: 1,484
PENALTIES - CANCELLATIONS ANY TIME CHARGE USD 500.00 FOR CANCEL/REFUND.
That line was nowhere on the page I booked. I would have seen that. It wasn't there.
I guess to all of you airline defenders it means that every passenger has to learn every fare class on every airline they book. Interestingtly, I just booked tickets on Jetblue. Right up front, easily visible, was information on cancellation. The above line was NOWHERE on my booking page. I did not take a photo of the page because I would hope the airline would be up front A dummy reservation, and I tried one as well, looked nothing like the one I made. In the fare box under business class was the fee and the words "REFUNDABLE". Nothing noting that there was a fee to the refundable fare.
Yes, I was wrong. I should have perused every word and not "trusted" that refundable means the same thing to an airline as it does to every other english speaking human being. Yes, what AA did was perfectly legal. But was it good business? Are they really distilling trust in their non-expert passengers who may not look at the super fine print? It is deceptive.
That line was nowhere on the page I booked. I would have seen that. It wasn't there.
I guess to all of you airline defenders it means that every passenger has to learn every fare class on every airline they book. Interestingtly, I just booked tickets on Jetblue. Right up front, easily visible, was information on cancellation. The above line was NOWHERE on my booking page. I did not take a photo of the page because I would hope the airline would be up front A dummy reservation, and I tried one as well, looked nothing like the one I made. In the fare box under business class was the fee and the words "REFUNDABLE". Nothing noting that there was a fee to the refundable fare.
Yes, I was wrong. I should have perused every word and not "trusted" that refundable means the same thing to an airline as it does to every other english speaking human being. Yes, what AA did was perfectly legal. But was it good business? Are they really distilling trust in their non-expert passengers who may not look at the super fine print? It is deceptive.
The word "refundable" was not used.
We, the "defenders", have aired ours opinions on AA, together with other airlines' practice above.
While you insisted you knew "what to look for regarding fees"/the penalties line was not there etc, the terms & conditions were agreed upon when you entered the transaction, just like when you signed any other legal documents which say "I agree to the terms and conditions...". You can't go back to your bank and say "you can't expect a normal person to read through this pile of paper" on house purchase, or "I have tons of investments on your bank so you should do me a favor" etc. It's an expensive Law 101, but almost everyone pays for it at some point.
Just FYI, here are the screenshots of UA and DL: (UA on flexible options but "unrestricted" was also available)
I say UA is the best among 3, but they are pretty much the same presenting restricted/flexible fares.
Last edited by andersonCooper; Jan 3, 2018 at 8:21 pm
Jan 3, 2018, 8:51 pm
#98
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 27,230
You do say you've booked dozens upon dozens of flights and know where to look. Someone with that level of responsibility surely SAVES a copy of the fare rules? (Print to PDF is the easiest way IME). That would be your evidence against AA. Unfortunately AA is unlikely to budge. You have a few options though. (1) File a complaint with the DOT at their website. Focus on the lack of visible disclosure. (2) Sue AA in small claims court, though the fine print is on their side so it's probably a losing proposition, but who knows, maybe you'll get a sympathetic judge or maybe AA will settle in an attempt to avoid publicity about this practice. (3) Try to take it viral on social/mainstream media and shame AA. I think your best case scenario is that AA gives you a voucher back for the value of the cancellation fee, but not sure I'd hold my breath for that.
Last edited by ijgordon; Jan 3, 2018 at 8:58 pm
Jan 3, 2018, 9:49 pm
#99
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: LAS/DXB
Programs: LH HON
Posts: 1,193
No one here is defending or speaking on behalf of AA. I guess we can all agree that other airlines have a much more customer friendly display of fare rules, cancelation and change fees. However, your take to put yourself out of the equation is quite irritating. If you believe that AA methods are deceptive feel free to take legal action or simply accept the fact that this time you made a mistake.
Jan 4, 2018, 6:48 am
#100
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 55,189
No one here is defending or speaking on behalf of AA. I guess we can all agree that other airlines have a much more customer friendly display of fare rules, cancelation and change fees. However, your take to put yourself out of the equation is quite irritating. If you believe that AA methods are deceptive feel free to take legal action or simply accept the fact that this time you made a mistake.
Jan 4, 2018, 2:41 pm
#101
Join Date: Aug 2012
Programs: BA Executive Club, AS Airlines Mileage Plan
Posts: 981
This is on the last page before actual payment.
I'm not defending AA's practice (and you can read my prior posts on this subject) in the least, but where you DO find the details regarding whether a fare is fully refundable or there is a penalty is in the fare rules. Not on the booking page. When you purchase the ticket you agree to the terms & conditions of the fares (aka the fare rules). There are two links to it. See image below.
You do say you've booked dozens upon dozens of flights and know where to look. Someone with that level of responsibility surely SAVES a copy of the fare rules? (Print to PDF is the easiest way IME). That would be your evidence against AA. Unfortunately AA is unlikely to budge. You have a few options though. (1) File a complaint with the DOT at their website. Focus on the lack of visible disclosure. (2) Sue AA in small claims court, though the fine print is on their side so it's probably a losing proposition, but who knows, maybe you'll get a sympathetic judge or maybe AA will settle in an attempt to avoid publicity about this practice. (3) Try to take it viral on social/mainstream media and shame AA. I think your best case scenario is that AA gives you a voucher back for the value of the cancellation fee, but not sure I'd hold my breath for that.
You do say you've booked dozens upon dozens of flights and know where to look. Someone with that level of responsibility surely SAVES a copy of the fare rules? (Print to PDF is the easiest way IME). That would be your evidence against AA. Unfortunately AA is unlikely to budge. You have a few options though. (1) File a complaint with the DOT at their website. Focus on the lack of visible disclosure. (2) Sue AA in small claims court, though the fine print is on their side so it's probably a losing proposition, but who knows, maybe you'll get a sympathetic judge or maybe AA will settle in an attempt to avoid publicity about this practice. (3) Try to take it viral on social/mainstream media and shame AA. I think your best case scenario is that AA gives you a voucher back for the value of the cancellation fee, but not sure I'd hold my breath for that.
Last edited by enzian; Jan 4, 2018 at 2:43 pm Reason: Clarification
Jan 4, 2018, 2:47 pm
#102
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,574
When you get to the final payment page, there is a link to detailed fare rules
Jan 4, 2018, 3:41 pm
#103
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: New York
Programs: AA, CX, Hyatt, Marriott
Posts: 1,484
You are not at the end of the transaction. The detailed fare rule is right above the "I agree to XXX" statement and "Pay now". Move all the way down at this page, if you can't, stop using Safari on your iPad.
Jan 4, 2018, 4:28 pm
#104
Join Date: Aug 2012
Programs: BA Executive Club, AS Airlines Mileage Plan
Posts: 981
OK, I just saw the comment about the iPad, so maybe that is the problem. I do my actual booking on the laptop, not the iPad.
Jan 4, 2018, 4:29 pm
#105
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 27,230
Yes, that's a whole separate issue that you can't even find out about the terms of the fare without going all the way through the booking process, until just before payment. Clearly a PNR is created by doing that. I wonder what would happen if Joel Hayes was trying to find out the fare rules. 