Aug 8, 2016, 12:26 pm
Last edit by: Prospero
Seat issues are not uncommon between finding, holding, booking and during the interim between booking and flying. There may be various reasons this can happen.
Seat held, changed or gone at booking: One member theorizes a held seat may be taken by a positive purchase by another passenger. But it could be due to another factor listed below.
Disability designated seat: Some seats are assigned preferentially to people with disabilities, and their companions, under the Air Carrier Access Act. Even some non-disability seats may be required for a person with a disability in some conditions.
"American blocks a limited number of seats on each aircraft to accommodate customers who identify themselves as having a qualified disability. Adjacent seats are provided, under certain circumstances, for customers with disabilities who must travel with a companion for assistance."
Flight nearly full: Once a flight has reached certain capacity guidelines, no further seats will be assigned. This leaves airport staff room to deal with the needs of persons with disabilities, no shows, delayed connections, etc.
Boarding pass scan fail: Sometimes a boarding pass scan fails (listen for the "Beep!") and your seat may register as no show, so another, later Passenger or standby gets your seat too.
Equipment change: AA Information Technology's very inefficient at these. You may have selected a Main Cabin Extra as an elite, yet a change from one aircraft subtype with differently numbered seat rows to another and you may find yourself moved from your carefully selected MCE aisle seat to a middle seat in one of the last rows. Aircraft substitutions from one type to another (77W to 772 or v. v.) or even "downgauging" (767 to 757) may occur - this will generally result in unanticipated seat changes.
Equipment malfunction: A seat may not be available on a specific flight because it was reported as malfunctioning and has not been repaired yet.
Crew rest seat: Some seats are contractually required to be set aside for resting crew, on flights of specific lengths.
Federal Air Marshal ("FAM"): FAMs are generally accommodated in the highest class of service in seats that are often popular with passengers. These accommodations may occur at any time, and by law AA must both comply and not reveal to passengers the reason for their seat loss or change. That's correct: AA is prohibited by law from telling you your seat was given to a FAM, so you will only hear implausible and made up reasons of how you lost your seat.
Other: AA might be required to seat a passenger with a small child together, displacing another passenger. There may be other reasons as well.
It is suggested you regularly check your itineraries to deal with route and flight changes (often unannounced) and seat changes (always unannounced).
Link to thread detailing use of Twitter for contact with AA (some have used for seat loss remediation)
Seat assignments Link
- We make every effort to ensure you get your chosen seat, but seat assignments are not guaranteed.
- We reserve the right to change seats for operational, safety or security reasons.
- You must check in at least 30 minutes before departure and be at the gate 15 minutes before departure or you may lose your seat.
Disability designated seat: Some seats are assigned preferentially to people with disabilities, and their companions, under the Air Carrier Access Act. Even some non-disability seats may be required for a person with a disability in some conditions.
"American blocks a limited number of seats on each aircraft to accommodate customers who identify themselves as having a qualified disability. Adjacent seats are provided, under certain circumstances, for customers with disabilities who must travel with a companion for assistance."
Flight nearly full: Once a flight has reached certain capacity guidelines, no further seats will be assigned. This leaves airport staff room to deal with the needs of persons with disabilities, no shows, delayed connections, etc.
Boarding pass scan fail: Sometimes a boarding pass scan fails (listen for the "Beep!") and your seat may register as no show, so another, later Passenger or standby gets your seat too.
Equipment change: AA Information Technology's very inefficient at these. You may have selected a Main Cabin Extra as an elite, yet a change from one aircraft subtype with differently numbered seat rows to another and you may find yourself moved from your carefully selected MCE aisle seat to a middle seat in one of the last rows. Aircraft substitutions from one type to another (77W to 772 or v. v.) or even "downgauging" (767 to 757) may occur - this will generally result in unanticipated seat changes.
Equipment malfunction: A seat may not be available on a specific flight because it was reported as malfunctioning and has not been repaired yet.
Crew rest seat: Some seats are contractually required to be set aside for resting crew, on flights of specific lengths.
Federal Air Marshal ("FAM"): FAMs are generally accommodated in the highest class of service in seats that are often popular with passengers. These accommodations may occur at any time, and by law AA must both comply and not reveal to passengers the reason for their seat loss or change. That's correct: AA is prohibited by law from telling you your seat was given to a FAM, so you will only hear implausible and made up reasons of how you lost your seat.
Passengers seated in the front cabin (or front of the cabin in single cabin and class aircraft) may occasionally find themselves displaced from their seat without any notice or comment, displaced to a less favored seat or even downgraded to the next lowest class of service. Contacting AA may provide answers as to "why" that don't make sense, multiple or non-specific reasons. These will often mean your seat has been requisitioned by a Federal Air Marshal (FAM).
Q. Why won't AA tell me why I lost my seat?
AA is prohibited by law from telling you your seat was requisitioned by a FAM or otherwise revealing there is a FAM on board or where they might be seated. FAMs are supposed to blend in with passengers. At best, you may be told "it's a security issue"; that's usually a confirmation of a FAM seat requisition.
Q. Can I get "unFAMed"?
There is no way to recover your original seat if it has been requisitioned by a FAM; you have no recourse other than to work with the AA system to seek a better available seat, or even reaccommodation on another flight with available and similar seating.
Q. Can I get compensated for losing my seat?
You can request fare differences, compensation and certainly get upgrade instruments reinstated if you were displaced to a lower class of service. You will not be eligible for compensation if your seat was changed within the same class of service (even if you are now separated from travel companions), however, as if you book a specific seat, a specific seat is not guaranteed by American Airlines.
Q. What is a FAM, anyway?
A Federal Air Marshal is a specially trained plain clothes anti-terrorism law enforcement officer of the Federal Air Marshal Service (FAMS), "a United States federal law enforcement agency under the supervision of the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) of the United States Department of Homeland Security (DHS)." (Wikipedia)
Q. What is a FAMs specific job?
"The Air Marshal Service is meant to promote confidence in civil aviation by effectively deploying federal air marshals (FAMs) to detect, deter, and defeat hostile acts targeting the United States." (TSA)
Q. Why won't AA tell me why I lost my seat?
AA is prohibited by law from telling you your seat was requisitioned by a FAM or otherwise revealing there is a FAM on board or where they might be seated. FAMs are supposed to blend in with passengers. At best, you may be told "it's a security issue"; that's usually a confirmation of a FAM seat requisition.
Q. Can I get "unFAMed"?
There is no way to recover your original seat if it has been requisitioned by a FAM; you have no recourse other than to work with the AA system to seek a better available seat, or even reaccommodation on another flight with available and similar seating.
Q. Can I get compensated for losing my seat?
You can request fare differences, compensation and certainly get upgrade instruments reinstated if you were displaced to a lower class of service. You will not be eligible for compensation if your seat was changed within the same class of service (even if you are now separated from travel companions), however, as if you book a specific seat, a specific seat is not guaranteed by American Airlines.
Q. What is a FAM, anyway?
A Federal Air Marshal is a specially trained plain clothes anti-terrorism law enforcement officer of the Federal Air Marshal Service (FAMS), "a United States federal law enforcement agency under the supervision of the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) of the United States Department of Homeland Security (DHS)." (Wikipedia)
Q. What is a FAMs specific job?
"The Air Marshal Service is meant to promote confidence in civil aviation by effectively deploying federal air marshals (FAMs) to detect, deter, and defeat hostile acts targeting the United States." (TSA)
It is suggested you regularly check your itineraries to deal with route and flight changes (often unannounced) and seat changes (always unannounced).
Link to thread detailing use of Twitter for contact with AA (some have used for seat loss remediation)
AA seat assignment loss / change / glitch / problem / FAM (master thread)
Jul 2, 2018, 9:02 am
#526
Join Date: May 2005
Location: PHX
Programs: AA Gold, WN A+ & CP, HH Diamond, Hyatt Platinum, National Executive Elite
Posts: 3,240
I don't think the OP said that. The supervisor was asked for the fare difference in cash right there and then and the supervisor said it doesn't work that way, which is correct.
Jul 2, 2018, 9:19 am
#527
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 153
My best guess.
TSA notified AA they needed seats in F. AA has no choice, no option but to put them where they request and move passengers elsewhere. AA may not tell the passengers about the FAM. Thus, if the passenger presses for an explanation, it's just a vague "security" reason.
Later, TSA notified AA they did not need the FAM seats. Thus, passengers were re-assigned and you got your FC seats.
That scenario explains your experience.
Remember AA, by law, must comply with the TSA FAM requests, and, by law, may not pass that info to passengers. They have NO CHOICE in this. It's infuriating to the passenger, sure, but there is nothing any AA employee can do about it.
Having read FT for a while and having read about FAM issues, I personally think it's wise to not ever book tickets in row 1 of any aircraft. That is where the FAM will sit to be closest to the cockpit. Best to pick other seats in the first place and then let the folks in row 1 deal with the FAM issues. Since I rarely fly F, I do indeed invite correction or clarification from other more experienced FTers.
TSA notified AA they needed seats in F. AA has no choice, no option but to put them where they request and move passengers elsewhere. AA may not tell the passengers about the FAM. Thus, if the passenger presses for an explanation, it's just a vague "security" reason.
Later, TSA notified AA they did not need the FAM seats. Thus, passengers were re-assigned and you got your FC seats.
That scenario explains your experience.
Remember AA, by law, must comply with the TSA FAM requests, and, by law, may not pass that info to passengers. They have NO CHOICE in this. It's infuriating to the passenger, sure, but there is nothing any AA employee can do about it.
Having read FT for a while and having read about FAM issues, I personally think it's wise to not ever book tickets in row 1 of any aircraft. That is where the FAM will sit to be closest to the cockpit. Best to pick other seats in the first place and then let the folks in row 1 deal with the FAM issues. Since I rarely fly F, I do indeed invite correction or clarification from other more experienced FTers.
Picking a non-aisle seat might be a good idea...
Jul 2, 2018, 9:29 am
#528
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: SAN
Programs: AA CK, Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 839
As a solo long haul J passenger, I went through a spell in the years following 9/11 when I was repeatedly reaccomodated to either another seat in J or worse, Y. Back then, I typically selected window seat 2A (on the left side). It finally occurred to me that perhaps most FAMs are right handed and probably would select that particular seat. In the years since, I’ve selected 4H or other seats on the right side and I’ve never been moved. This could be pure coincidence, however.
Jul 2, 2018, 9:36 am
#529
Join Date: Jul 2018
Programs: AAdvantage Platinum
Posts: 7
No demand was made for the fare difference in cash "right there and then." Obviously the supervisor would not be able to do that. But if the fare difference was going to be paid through the AA system (perhaps as a credit to my credit card used to purchase the tickets), a statement to that effect from the supervisor would have been appropriate. But in response to my request for the difference in the F and J fares, the supervisor was clearly telling me that two $1000 vouchers was the total compensation being offered by AA. And the supervisor was also telling me that my tickets were not paid first class. As previously mentioned, I use award tickets often, and I was only able to confirm later that our tickets on this flight were neither award tickets or mileage upgrades.
Jul 2, 2018, 9:40 am
#530
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Brighton. UK
Programs: BA Gold / VS /IHG Diamond & Ambassador
Posts: 14,176
Expecting a gate agent or even a supervisor to do any sort of calculation at the gate when they are trying to get the flight to depart is down right unreasonable
Jul 2, 2018, 10:23 am
#531
Join Date: Feb 2016
Programs: DL DM, SPG Plat 100/LT Gold, Marriott Plat, National Executive Elite
Posts: 2,988
Did you get to keep the $1000 vouchers after being seated in F?
Jul 2, 2018, 11:42 am
#532
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Wesley Chapel, FL
Programs: American Airlines
Posts: 29,970
From what I can read OP didn't accept the vouchers--that would have meant relenting to the downgrade to J request.
Jul 2, 2018, 12:11 pm
#533
Join Date: Feb 2016
Programs: DL DM, SPG Plat 100/LT Gold, Marriott Plat, National Executive Elite
Posts: 2,988
If you or the "average consumer" paid enough money for a plane ticket that you could buy a used car for - shouldn't AA put its best foot forward and make sure these pax are happy and continue to spend those big bucks?
Instead they made the person experience a whirlwind of emotions and incorrect information only to end up not next to one another, as they had reserved.
Jul 2, 2018, 12:24 pm
#534
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: MCI
Programs: AA LT Gold; BA Silver; Hilton Diamond
Posts: 3,081
If you or the "average consumer" paid enough money for a plane ticket that you could buy a used car for - shouldn't AA put its best foot forward and make sure these pax are happy and continue to spend those big bucks?
Instead they made the person experience a whirlwind of emotions and incorrect information only to end up not next to one another, as they had reserved.
Instead they made the person experience a whirlwind of emotions and incorrect information only to end up not next to one another, as they had reserved.
It's also odd that the gate agents thought that the OP and his wife were flying or upgrading with miles; wouldn't they have access to the fare class in the passenger manifest?
They need to be a little nicer to those of us who pay cold, hard cash to sit up front.
Jul 2, 2018, 12:39 pm
#535
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 17,403
This is why I think it was really bad business on the part of AA. I get that IF they needed to bump pax to accommodate FAMs they had no choice. They did have a choice in whom they inconvenienced. When I retired I realized that if I was flying Business Class there was less incentive to fly any particular airline- I didn't fly often enough in a year to maintain Elite status. All the loyalty perks- priority boarding, lounge access, no checked baggage fees- come with Business Class airfare even if I've never flown with that airline in my life. I can book based on schedule, routings and which airlines seem to be doing a less-crappy job at the moment.
It's also odd that the gate agents thought that the OP and his wife were flying or upgrading with miles; wouldn't they have access to the fare class in the passenger manifest?
They need to be a little nicer to those of us who pay cold, hard cash to sit up front.
It's also odd that the gate agents thought that the OP and his wife were flying or upgrading with miles; wouldn't they have access to the fare class in the passenger manifest?
They need to be a little nicer to those of us who pay cold, hard cash to sit up front.
Also, the whole "maybe the GA thought they were non-rev" discussion seems like a dodge to me. As well as the "just trying to get the flight out on time". By instigating a dispute with a customer?
I'd believe he was making space for his relatives before I'd believe either of those reasons.
Didn't the OP state that it was an elderly couple occupying the seats they booked?
Jul 2, 2018, 1:49 pm
#536
Join Date: Jul 2018
Programs: AAdvantage Platinum
Posts: 7
To clarify, the vouchers were going to be issued with the business class boarding passes, so vouchers were not issued when we received the first class boarding passes.
Question above: "Didn't the OP state that it was an elderly couple occupying the seats they booked?" The guy who was given 1D (and his wife in 1A) appeared to be about the same age as me (I'm 73) and apparently healthy, so being elderly played no role in what occurred. What was very clear is that the gate supervisor until a few minutes before boarding told me that if we wanted to be on that flight, we had to take the business class seats, and two $1000 vouchers was the only compensation we would receive.
Is the EU261 reimbursement of 75% within seven days automatic? Or would I have had to make application for it? This would have been an unlikely as I was not aware of the EU rule. Also, if I had accepted the vouchers, would AA have asserted that I accepted their offer as final and I was disqualified from any further compensation? From the fish story I related above with AA ignoring the damaged baggage rules of the Montreal Convention, AA is not above ignoring rules they don't like.
Question above: "Didn't the OP state that it was an elderly couple occupying the seats they booked?" The guy who was given 1D (and his wife in 1A) appeared to be about the same age as me (I'm 73) and apparently healthy, so being elderly played no role in what occurred. What was very clear is that the gate supervisor until a few minutes before boarding told me that if we wanted to be on that flight, we had to take the business class seats, and two $1000 vouchers was the only compensation we would receive.
Is the EU261 reimbursement of 75% within seven days automatic? Or would I have had to make application for it? This would have been an unlikely as I was not aware of the EU rule. Also, if I had accepted the vouchers, would AA have asserted that I accepted their offer as final and I was disqualified from any further compensation? From the fish story I related above with AA ignoring the damaged baggage rules of the Montreal Convention, AA is not above ignoring rules they don't like.
Jul 2, 2018, 4:07 pm
#537
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: PHL
Programs: HH Lifetime Diamond, AA EXP, Marriott Titanium
Posts: 583
As a solo long haul J passenger, I went through a spell in the years following 9/11 when I was repeatedly reaccomodated to either another seat in J or worse, Y. Back then, I typically selected window seat 2A (on the left side). It finally occurred to me that perhaps most FAMs are right handed and probably would select that particular seat. In the years since, I’ve selected 4H or other seats on the right side and I’ve never been moved. This could be pure coincidence, however.
Different planes obviously will have different seats that make sense, but on the 332, 3A was a clear view where 1A was actually obstructed (though me in 2A was a decent view).
Jul 2, 2018, 4:11 pm
#538
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 17,403
Question above: "Didn't the OP state that it was an elderly couple occupying the seats they booked?" The guy who was given 1D (and his wife in 1A) appeared to be about the same age as me (I'm 73) and apparently healthy, so being elderly played no role in what occurred.
I meant that their age and the fact that they were a couple was evidence that this wasn't a FAM displacement.
Any more than the GA thought you were non-rev and thus chose to displace you for this couple.
Or that playing musical chairs at the desk will ever in any way speed up the boarding process.
(This just sounds like Shena to me, only you paid for your seats, instead of getting boned out of an upgrade.)
Jul 2, 2018, 6:15 pm
#539
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 27,222
I would have expected the FAM to be in 2A which should have a view of the cockpit door. I think 1A is too close to the bulkhead.
OP never said anything about who was sitting in 2A, so FAM remains entirely plausible IMO.
Other seats could have been shuffled instead of just bumping pax 2A. It's certainly believable that all 8 pax could have been on paid fares, and they used another criteria to determine who was supposed to get downgraded (e.g., elite status, time of checkin, fare class F vs. A, etc.) If OP was on an A fare it's possible the gate agent could have thought that was an upgrade (because A class is used for upgrades to first class as well as discounted paid fares) without looking more closely at the e-ticket.
OP never said anything about who was sitting in 2A, so FAM remains entirely plausible IMO.
Other seats could have been shuffled instead of just bumping pax 2A. It's certainly believable that all 8 pax could have been on paid fares, and they used another criteria to determine who was supposed to get downgraded (e.g., elite status, time of checkin, fare class F vs. A, etc.) If OP was on an A fare it's possible the gate agent could have thought that was an upgrade (because A class is used for upgrades to first class as well as discounted paid fares) without looking more closely at the e-ticket.
Jul 2, 2018, 6:39 pm
#540
Moderator: American AAdvantage
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
Programs: AA LT Plat; HH LT Diamond, Maître-plongeur des Muccis
Posts: 62,948
Perhaps I e missed the reference, but what aircraft types are we discussing here? A321T / transcontinental Airbus A321-200 Sharklets? Certainly not the 777-323ER / 77W, but I want to double check.
In the A321T, the galley / vestibule / cockpit areas are visible, and it’s closer than rows 4 and 5. Row 5 has the advantage of good views and, after the e it, firm bulkheads.
But there’s little doubt the musical chairs game here, with the ensuing confusion over how to treat passengers, ensued from the required boarding of two Federal Air Marshalls.
In the A321T, the galley / vestibule / cockpit areas are visible, and it’s closer than rows 4 and 5. Row 5 has the advantage of good views and, after the e it, firm bulkheads.
But there’s little doubt the musical chairs game here, with the ensuing confusion over how to treat passengers, ensued from the required boarding of two Federal Air Marshalls.
