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ARCHIVE: American applies for LAX-HND [2015 plan delayed]

ARCHIVE: American applies for LAX-HND [2015 plan delayed]

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Old Nov 3, 15, 11:59 pm   -   Wikipost
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This is the archive of the thread discussing American Airlines' application for LAX-HND flights and the many circumstances contributing to the delays moving such flights out from 2015 Q4 to 11 Feb 2016.

For the current thread, see American Begins Daily LAX-HND Service 11 Feb 2016 w/ 787-8 (after delays).


Previously (as posted by Exec_Plat), wandering_fred and ashill:

DOT Docket is DOT-OST-2010-0018
AA's application to fly LAX-HND (and motion to transfer DL's authority to fly SEA-LAX) is document DOT-OST-2010-0018-0384

On June 14, 2015, the DOT ruled that Delta would retain the HND slot for use on SEA-HND with dormancy conditions that require Delta to operate the flight every day of the year.

On June 17, 2015, Delta notified the DOT in a letter that it would "determined that it is not commercially feasible to operate the slots allocated to Delta for Seattle-Haneda service on a consistent daily basis year-round". The last Delta SEA-HND flight will operate on September 30, 2015. Delta will return the slots to the DOT on October 1, 2015, at which point the slots will automatically revert to American.

American service on LAX-HND could begin (err rather could have begun) as early as October 1, 2015.

While DOT has granted rights to AA, the actual time slots in which AA can arrive and depart HND are subject to negotiation with HND and other carriers.

- It is not clear that DL had slots every day of the year, and in fact DL may have been required to surrender the slots on August 15, 2015.
- AA needs to secure daily slots for HND, however the annual winter 2015 (W15) slot conference was on June 23, 2015, only a few days after DL notified DOT they would surrender the route.
- It is unknown when AA will acquire new time slots. Purportedly the IATA slot conference for S15 will be 10-12 November. Going by the published calendar Oct 8 begins this activity: https://www.iata.org/events/Document...activities.pdf
-There may be some motion with daytime slots (Aviationweek):
The U.S. Transportation Department (DOT) recently briefed U.S. carriers on the Japanese proposal, several people familiar with the matter told Aviation Daily. As it is currently understood, the proposal would shift some of the slots available to U.S. carriers to daytime hours. It may also include one additional slot pair, which would likely not be for a daily flight
- Per the published guidelines, the SAL Deadline is October 29, 2015, at which time the airport shall have made their initial decision on all slots to be allocated for the coming season. [One assumes horsetrading then begins.]
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Old Oct 2, 14, 3:44 pm
  #1  
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ARCHIVE: American applies for LAX-HND [2015 plan delayed]

American has applied to begin daily non-stop service between Los Angeles and Tokyo-Haneda on January 15, 2015. It is unclear if it would replace Los Angeles-Narita service. The proposed schedule uses the flight numbers AA 169/170, which suggest it might, but the actual proposal submitted to DOT does not make mention of it.

AA 169 LAX 1705-2200+1 HND 772 Daily
AA 170 HND 0130-1825-1 LAX 772 Daily

Delta seasonally suspended it's Seattle-Haneda route yesterday, and American is making the argument the slot should be transferred, while Delta will attempt to keep it dormant.

Proposal requires logging in:

http://airlineinfo.com/ostpdf91/679.pdf
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Old Oct 2, 14, 3:51 pm
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Those are the same flight numbers used currently for the NRT/LAX flights. If it's used to replace that flight, I would have to assume they're targeting O&D. I can't imagine any transit opportunities unless you're willing to spend a night in the area.

It will make CX the primary option if you're connecting to other parts of Asia from LAX.

There is the JL flight, but it's simply not a great place to connect when HKG offers such a big advantage in frequency.
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Old Oct 2, 14, 4:12 pm
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I'm keeping a close eye on this - what are the chances of this being successful?

I have an AA169 booking for next April and such a change could be problematic.
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Old Oct 2, 14, 5:09 pm
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The return flight leaves HND at 1:30am? I though HND had a night curfew.
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Old Oct 2, 14, 5:16 pm
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Originally Posted by Fanjet View Post
The return flight leaves HND at 1:30am? I though HND had a night curfew.
No. HND operates 24/7.

The curfew refers to the rules that flights from the USA cannot arrive before 10 pm (can arrive only between 10 pm and 6:59 am) and can depart HND only between midnight and 6:59 am.

Last edited by FWAAA; Oct 2, 14 at 6:07 pm
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Old Oct 2, 14, 5:20 pm
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Much prefer HND to NRT so this would be a great option.
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Old Oct 2, 14, 6:02 pm
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Interesting, will AA keep LAX-NRT if this go through?

Arrival at HND is very late. Tokyo’s public transportations does not run 24 hrs. Arrival of 10 p.m. will limit area of Tokyo accessible by public transportations at that time of the day. Also, 10 p.m. arrival will not allow any connection to domestic flight in Japan. It will allow international connection to JL’s red eye flights to some Southeast Asia destination, such as Bangkok, Ho Chi Minh City, and Singapore. But still 10 p.m. arrival is not convenient even if your final destination is Tokyo.

1:30 a.m. departure of HND will allow more connections from various domestic destination in Japan using last flight into Tokyo. Also allow a lot of international connection. At LAX end 6:25 p.m. arrival will allow connection to red eye flights to East Coast cities…

I guess first thing first, AA has to get the approval… Will this 772 going to have F?
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Old Oct 3, 14, 12:39 am
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Decent for O/D, terrible for connections. With such a difference in time, my guess is NRT service will be preserved if HND rights are granted.

Plus, this could be a backdoor way of JL (as the JV partner) to get another slot into HND, since they were shafted with the last round of HND slot awards, where NH took most of them.
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Old Oct 3, 14, 12:52 am
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I would love this. NRT takes *forever* to get into the city from. HND is so much closer. (I agree not as good for international connections, but...)
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Old Oct 3, 14, 7:37 am
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It's using the same flight numbers as the existing LAX-NRT flight, which could indicate LAX-HND would replace LAX-NRT, just like at JFK when JFK-HND replaced JFK-NRT. However, I don't think AA would get LAX-HND since DL already flies that route. The DOT tends to prefer using HND slots for new flights. I think AA would have a better chance of getting DFW-HND.
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Old Oct 3, 14, 9:16 am
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Originally Posted by LAXative View Post
Decent for O/D, terrible for connections. With such a difference in time, my guess is NRT service will be preserved if HND rights are granted.
It's a near certainty that AA's LAX-NRT flight would end if AA were granted this request for LAX-HND. Joint venture partner JAL has LAX-NRT covered.

Originally Posted by austin_res View Post
It's using the same flight numbers as the existing LAX-NRT flight, which could indicate LAX-HND would replace LAX-NRT, just like at JFK when JFK-HND replaced JFK-NRT. However, I don't think AA would get LAX-HND since DL already flies that route. The DOT tends to prefer using HND slots for new flights. I think AA would have a better chance of getting DFW-HND.
While I agree with your thoughts about the DOT's philosophy, LAX-TYO has substantially more O&D than DFW (or SEA or just about any other USA gateway). LAX-HND, which AA asked for in 2010, would provide inter-alliance competition, as it's currently served by Skyteam (DL) and Star (NH).

DFW simply wouldn't work, for the same reasons that JFK and DTW failed. It's nearly the same distance as JFK-HND and is only one time zone to the west. As a result, the HND curfew (cannot arrive prior to 10 pm and can depart only between midnight and 6:59 am) does not produce commercially viable departure and arrival times at DFW.

If HND is opened up to arrivals and departures from the USA at "normal" times (arrive HND late afternoon and depart 2-3 hours later), then DFW, ORD, PHL, etc. would work.

This slot either remains in DL's possession and is suspended for half the year (except for several flights to retain possession) or it's transferred to AA for LAX or to HA (which will obviously fight for it). Mid-continent or East coast hubs are a non-starter.
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Old Oct 3, 14, 10:01 am
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Would be an interesting option flying to SIN and back. Redeye flights both ways, and the opportunity to catch lunch in Tokyo and then fly out of NRT (easier connections for AUS)
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Old Oct 3, 14, 10:48 am
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I think everyone prefers HND as an O/D airport for Tokyo. However, until the flight arrival/departure times become more reasonable, I'd still rather go via NRT. Last thing I want to do is have to check out of my hotel at 4PM and still have ~7 hours to kill before going to the airport.

HND is also pretty useless for international connections, and the timing makes domestic connections break as well.
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Old Oct 3, 14, 11:07 am
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What a bummer of a decision. Those HND times are awful for connections.
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Old Oct 3, 14, 12:01 pm
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I'd welcome this, I take 169 and 170 often. About half the time I connect to NGO, and I'd much rather connect to NGO via HND anyways. I find inter-Japan flights to be better out of HND, so for those connecting within Japan, this is an improvement.

I'm flying AUS-NGO later this month, and for the first time ever, I was unable to get a cost-effective flight through NRT (majority of the time I take 169). I was able to get AUS-DFW-PVG-NGO for half the price of AUS-DFW-NRT-NGO. For my return, the two daily NGO-NRT JL flights were sold out. I'll take shinkansen from Nagoya to Tokyo Station then Narita Express to catch NRT-LAX-AUS (this flight had low load). In my experience the two NRT-NGO flights are always expensive and many times full (they use 787 and 777-300 on some of those flights).

So I would generally welcome this change. It is a major bonus for those actually heading to Tokyo, it's an improvement in Japan-domestic connections and it relies on better located airports in OW for other Asian connections. When I flew to SIN, I went through HKG rather than NRT. That NRT-SIN route is a long way on non-AA metal, so for non-Japan connections, I'd prefer to get further into Asia than NRT.

Finally, since this is just LAX based, AA probably feels there is so much overall Asian competition out of TBIT that it should focus on Japan market for those flights. Out of DFW and ORD, NRT assuredly stays around.

Last edited by BrianV; Oct 3, 14 at 12:08 pm
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