Nov 4, 2015, 7:49 am
Last edit by: JDiver
This is the archive of the thread discussing American Airlines' application for LAX-HND flights and the many circumstances contributing to the delays moving such flights out from 2015 Q4 to 11 Feb 2016.
For the current thread, see American Begins Daily LAX-HND Service 11 Feb 2016 w/ 787-8 (after delays).
Previously (as posted by Exec_Plat), wandering_fred and ashill:
DOT Docket is DOT-OST-2010-0018
AA's application to fly LAX-HND (and motion to transfer DL's authority to fly SEA-LAX) is document DOT-OST-2010-0018-0384
On June 14, 2015, the DOT ruled that Delta would retain the HND slot for use on SEA-HND with dormancy conditions that require Delta to operate the flight every day of the year.
On June 17, 2015, Delta notified the DOT in a letter that it would "determined that it is not commercially feasible to operate the slots allocated to Delta for Seattle-Haneda service on a consistent daily basis year-round". The last Delta SEA-HND flight will operate on September 30, 2015. Delta will return the slots to the DOT on October 1, 2015, at which point the slots will automatically revert to American.
American service on LAX-HND could begin (err rather could have begun) as early as October 1, 2015.
While DOT has granted rights to AA, the actual time slots in which AA can arrive and depart HND are subject to negotiation with HND and other carriers.
- It is not clear that DL had slots every day of the year, and in fact DL may have been required to surrender the slots on August 15, 2015.
- AA needs to secure daily slots for HND, however the annual winter 2015 (W15) slot conference was on June 23, 2015, only a few days after DL notified DOT they would surrender the route.
- It is unknown when AA will acquire new time slots. Purportedly the IATA slot conference for S15 will be 10-12 November. Going by the published calendar Oct 8 begins this activity: https://www.iata.org/events/Document...activities.pdf
-There may be some motion with daytime slots (Aviationweek):
- Per the published guidelines, the SAL Deadline is October 29, 2015, at which time the airport shall have made their initial decision on all slots to be allocated for the coming season. [One assumes horsetrading then begins.]
For the current thread, see American Begins Daily LAX-HND Service 11 Feb 2016 w/ 787-8 (after delays).
Previously (as posted by Exec_Plat), wandering_fred and ashill:
DOT Docket is DOT-OST-2010-0018
AA's application to fly LAX-HND (and motion to transfer DL's authority to fly SEA-LAX) is document DOT-OST-2010-0018-0384
On June 14, 2015, the DOT ruled that Delta would retain the HND slot for use on SEA-HND with dormancy conditions that require Delta to operate the flight every day of the year.
On June 17, 2015, Delta notified the DOT in a letter that it would "determined that it is not commercially feasible to operate the slots allocated to Delta for Seattle-Haneda service on a consistent daily basis year-round". The last Delta SEA-HND flight will operate on September 30, 2015. Delta will return the slots to the DOT on October 1, 2015, at which point the slots will automatically revert to American.
American service on LAX-HND could begin (err rather could have begun) as early as October 1, 2015.
While DOT has granted rights to AA, the actual time slots in which AA can arrive and depart HND are subject to negotiation with HND and other carriers.
- It is not clear that DL had slots every day of the year, and in fact DL may have been required to surrender the slots on August 15, 2015.
- AA needs to secure daily slots for HND, however the annual winter 2015 (W15) slot conference was on June 23, 2015, only a few days after DL notified DOT they would surrender the route.
- It is unknown when AA will acquire new time slots. Purportedly the IATA slot conference for S15 will be 10-12 November. Going by the published calendar Oct 8 begins this activity: https://www.iata.org/events/Document...activities.pdf
-There may be some motion with daytime slots (Aviationweek):
The U.S. Transportation Department (DOT) recently briefed U.S. carriers on the Japanese proposal, several people familiar with the matter told Aviation Daily. As it is currently understood, the proposal would shift some of the slots available to U.S. carriers to daytime hours. It may also include one additional slot pair, which would likely not be for a daily flight
ARCHIVE: American applies for LAX-HND [2015 plan delayed]
Jan 11, 2015, 12:03 am
#61
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New Orleans (MSY)
Programs: AA EXP, IHG PLT, Hilton Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Amtrak, WN
Posts: 2,617
Maybe AA is planning on using the 787 on this route. I could see them certainly canceling LAXNRT if they were planning on using the 772, but if they use a combo of 787s and 772s then maybe both routes will stay.
Jan 11, 2015, 12:57 pm
#62
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 762
That is what I was thinking too. About them putting the 787 on this route. It would be a very good use.
Jan 11, 2015, 3:38 pm
#63
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2001
Location: LAX; AA EXP, MM; HH Gold
Posts: 31,789
Substantially higher probability that LAX-NRT becomes a 787 if AA wins LAX-HND.
Jan 13, 2015, 8:51 pm
#64
formerly gemini573
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: LAX, HKG, and BKK
Programs: CX Emerald, WOH Globalist, Marriott Platinum, AA Lifetime Platinum, Virtuoso, Prive, STEPS, STARS
Posts: 2,233
I have a feeling AA has a decent chance at this route.
DL has applied for LAX-PVG for July 9th, daily with a 772.
Schedule is as follows
DL 185 LAX-PVG 13:15-18:15
DL 186 PVG-LAX 20:55-18:15
DL has applied for LAX-PVG for July 9th, daily with a 772.
Schedule is as follows
DL 185 LAX-PVG 13:15-18:15
DL 186 PVG-LAX 20:55-18:15
Jan 13, 2015, 9:12 pm
#65
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Alexandria, Longboat Key
Programs: UA Gold Marriott Gold AA Gold Choice Gold Wyndham PLAT IHG PLAT Avis President's Club Amtrak Select
Posts: 2,263
It appears Delta is ready to give up on Haneda and retaliating against AA by killing their yields on LAX-PVG as PVG is a Skyteam hub. If AA is given LAX-HND, it will likely be served by the 787-8. LAX-PVG will probably be downgauged to the 787-8 as well as Delta receives the authority to serve the route. I don't see any reason why Delta doesn't receive the authority to start this route as they will undoubtedly end NRT-PVG simultaneously. Let LAX-PVG get REALLY ugly!
Jan 14, 2015, 1:34 am
#67
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Usually in SAN or Central Europe.
Programs: AA:EXP/1MM. Accor/Radisson:Silver; HH:Gold; ICH:Plt Amb.
Posts: 22,307
It appears Delta is ready to give up on Haneda and retaliating against AA by killing their yields on LAX-PVG as PVG is a Skyteam hub. If AA is given LAX-HND, it will likely be served by the 787-8. LAX-PVG will probably be downgauged to the 787-8 as well as Delta receives the authority to serve the route. I don't see any reason why Delta doesn't receive the authority to start this route as they will undoubtedly end NRT-PVG simultaneously. Let LAX-PVG get REALLY ugly!
Jan 14, 2015, 5:40 am
#68
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: CLT
Programs: AA Platinum Pro, DL UA
Posts: 457
If Delta isn't given a chance on the SEA to HND, after more build up of their SEA hub and promising to fly the route daily, and if AA is awarded LAX to HND, Delta should return to ORD to NRT (former NW route). Also, maybe Delta would consider DFW to NRT as the free up some slots at NRT from the reduction of intra Asian flying!
Jan 14, 2015, 7:35 am
#69
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Alexandria, Longboat Key
Programs: UA Gold Marriott Gold AA Gold Choice Gold Wyndham PLAT IHG PLAT Avis President's Club Amtrak Select
Posts: 2,263
They'll start it with a 772, most likely a refurbished one, but within a year realize the Dreamliner is a much better aircraft for this route. We'll see how long United's 777 lasts on SFO-HND. Delta's load factor on LAX-HND on a 208 seat 767 has been just above 75%. SEA-HND has been a total disaster and I definitely agree AA deserves a shot at LAX-HND. The way I see it in two years assuming no daytime slots, Delta abandons Haneda entirely, United and American make a small profit operating the 787-8 on SFO/LAX-HND respectively, and Hawaiian finally operates KOA-HND and does well on this route.
Jan 14, 2015, 7:42 am
#70
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Alexandria, Longboat Key
Programs: UA Gold Marriott Gold AA Gold Choice Gold Wyndham PLAT IHG PLAT Avis President's Club Amtrak Select
Posts: 2,263
Wouldn't this kill the yields more on DL's SEA-PVG route? As LAX probably has better connection options for DL than SEA. I think the LAX-China market is growing at a reasonable rate that another carrier serving the route isn't going to cause serious damage for the existing carriers. And wouldn't the better retaliation be just to re-instate the SEA-HND service?
Jan 14, 2015, 9:11 am
#71
formerly gemini573
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: LAX, HKG, and BKK
Programs: CX Emerald, WOH Globalist, Marriott Platinum, AA Lifetime Platinum, Virtuoso, Prive, STEPS, STARS
Posts: 2,233
LAX-PVG is going to be a fight.
2 x daily by July for MU
1 x daily AA
1 x daily UA
1 x daily DL (possibility)
Does DL/MU have a JV across the Pacific.
I can imagine SWU being so easy to use on LAX-PVG.
2 x daily by July for MU
1 x daily AA
1 x daily UA
1 x daily DL (possibility)
Does DL/MU have a JV across the Pacific.
I can imagine SWU being so easy to use on LAX-PVG.
Jan 14, 2015, 9:28 am
#72
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Alexandria, Longboat Key
Programs: UA Gold Marriott Gold AA Gold Choice Gold Wyndham PLAT IHG PLAT Avis President's Club Amtrak Select
Posts: 2,263
No open skies between US and the PRC. Once open skies becomes a reality, probably later this decade, a joint venture between DL/MU is quite likely. While Skyteam stinks in general, they have a strong presence in China with China Southern and China Eastern.
Jan 14, 2015, 10:15 am
#73
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2001
Location: LAX; AA EXP, MM; HH Gold
Posts: 31,789
They'll start it with a 772, most likely a refurbished one, but within a year realize the Dreamliner is a much better aircraft for this route. We'll see how long United's 777 lasts on SFO-HND. Delta's load factor on LAX-HND on a 208 seat 767 has been just above 75%. SEA-HND has been a total disaster and I definitely agree AA deserves a shot at LAX-HND. The way I see it in two years assuming no daytime slots, Delta abandons Haneda entirely, United and American make a small profit operating the 787-8 on SFO/LAX-HND respectively, and Hawaiian finally operates KOA-HND and does well on this route.
AA promised in its application to begin flying LAX-HND within 90 days if awarded the route and said that it would use its best efforts to begin the route within 60 days, but couldn't guarantee that it would start within 60.
AA simply doesn't have enough reconfigured 772s yet to begin LAX-HND with them.
Eventually, AA might fly this with a 787, or a 763, but it's not going to make that switch very soon, or else it would give DL a perfect opportunity to petition the DOT to strip it from AA, as DL would claim that AA lied about committing to use a 777. And it would give DL ammo in future HND proceedings if/when more frequencies become available.
Having written paragraph after paragraph about DL's failures to live up to its large aircraft promises, it's highly unlikely that AA would do anything similar.
AA, DL and HA filed their answers/rebuttals on Monday:
DL: http://www.regulations.gov/#!documen...2010-0018-0406
AA: http://www.regulations.gov/#!documen...2010-0018-0405
HA: http://www.regulations.gov/#!documen...2010-0018-0408
Jan 18, 2015, 8:44 pm
#74
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: SBA
Programs: UA & AA 1 million miler
Posts: 1,134
Jan 18, 2015, 10:48 pm
#75
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 762
Has there been any word from the DOT lately about the slot??