Jan 31, 2015, 1:17 pm
Last edit by: Prospero
NOTE: See AA Bump Rates; compensation for VDB / Voluntary Denied Boarding (consolidated) for VOLUNTARY denied boarding.
Passengers involuntarily denied boarding on AA are denied usually after calls for volunteers to accept vouchers (and occasionally variable other benefits), usually beginning at $200 or $300 but possibly going significantly higher, depending on passenger response. See more below, from AA Conditions of Carriage.
Link to AA Conditions of Carriage, "Oversales"
"DBC" (involuntarily) denied boarding compensation is governed in the USA by "14 CFR 250.5 - Amount of denied boarding compensation for passengers denied boarding involuntarily".
Link to CFR §250.5
Link to US Dept. of Transportation Aviation Consumer Protection Division's "Fly-Rights - A Consumer Guide to Air Travel" section on Overbooking
In the European Union, EC261/2004 governs denied boarding compensation.
Link to EC261 / EC 261/2004 complaints and AA (master thread)
On American Airlines, you are sometimes ineligible for IDB as allowed by the USDOT:
The previous thread is http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ameri...solidated.html
Passengers involuntarily denied boarding on AA are denied usually after calls for volunteers to accept vouchers (and occasionally variable other benefits), usually beginning at $200 or $300 but possibly going significantly higher, depending on passenger response. See more below, from AA Conditions of Carriage.
Link to AA Conditions of Carriage, "Oversales"
"DBC" (involuntarily) denied boarding compensation is governed in the USA by "14 CFR 250.5 - Amount of denied boarding compensation for passengers denied boarding involuntarily".
Link to CFR §250.5
CFR §250.2b Carriers to request volunteers for denied boarding.
(a) In the event of an oversold flight, every carrier shall request volunteers for denied boarding before using any other boarding priority. A “volunteer” is a person who responds to the carrier's request for volunteers and who willingly accepts the carriers' offer of compensation, in any amount, in exchange for relinquishing the confirmed reserved space. Any other passenger denied boarding is considered for purposes of this part to have been denied boarding involuntarily, even if that passenger accepts the denied boarding compensation.
(b) Every carrier shall advise each passenger solicited to volunteer for denied boarding, no later than the time the carrier solicits that passenger to volunteer, whether he or she is in danger of being involuntarily denied boarding and, if so, the compensation the carrier is obligated to pay if the passenger is involuntarily denied boarding. If an insufficient number of volunteers come forward, the carrier may deny boarding to other passengers in accordance with its boarding priority rules.
14 CFR §250.9 Written explanation of denied boarding compensation and boarding priorities, and verbal notification of denied boarding compensation.
(a) Every carrier shall furnish passengers who are denied boarding involuntarily from flights on which they hold confirmed reserved space immediately after the denied boarding occurs, a written statement explaining the terms, conditions, and limitations of denied boarding compensation, and describing the carriers' boarding priority rules and criteria. The carrier shall also furnish the statement to any person upon request at all airport ticket selling positions which are in the charge of a person employed exclusively by the carrier, or by it jointly with another person or persons, and at all boarding locations being used by the carrier.
(a) In the event of an oversold flight, every carrier shall request volunteers for denied boarding before using any other boarding priority. A “volunteer” is a person who responds to the carrier's request for volunteers and who willingly accepts the carriers' offer of compensation, in any amount, in exchange for relinquishing the confirmed reserved space. Any other passenger denied boarding is considered for purposes of this part to have been denied boarding involuntarily, even if that passenger accepts the denied boarding compensation.
(b) Every carrier shall advise each passenger solicited to volunteer for denied boarding, no later than the time the carrier solicits that passenger to volunteer, whether he or she is in danger of being involuntarily denied boarding and, if so, the compensation the carrier is obligated to pay if the passenger is involuntarily denied boarding. If an insufficient number of volunteers come forward, the carrier may deny boarding to other passengers in accordance with its boarding priority rules.
14 CFR §250.9 Written explanation of denied boarding compensation and boarding priorities, and verbal notification of denied boarding compensation.
(a) Every carrier shall furnish passengers who are denied boarding involuntarily from flights on which they hold confirmed reserved space immediately after the denied boarding occurs, a written statement explaining the terms, conditions, and limitations of denied boarding compensation, and describing the carriers' boarding priority rules and criteria. The carrier shall also furnish the statement to any person upon request at all airport ticket selling positions which are in the charge of a person employed exclusively by the carrier, or by it jointly with another person or persons, and at all boarding locations being used by the carrier.
In the European Union, EC261/2004 governs denied boarding compensation.
Link to EC261 / EC 261/2004 complaints and AA (master thread)
On American Airlines, you are sometimes ineligible for IDB as allowed by the USDOT:
Code:
If a flight is oversold (more passengers hold confirmed reservations than
there are seats available), no one may be denied boarding against his or her will
until airline personnel first ask for volunteers who will give up their reservation
willingly, in exchange for compensation of the airline’s choosing. If there are not
enough volunteers, other passengers may be denied boarding involuntarily in
accordance with the following boarding priority of American. In such events,
American will usually deny boarding based upon check-in time, but we may also
consider factors such as severe hardships, fare paid, and status within the
AAdvantage® program.
If you are denied boarding involuntarily, you are entitled to a payment of
‘‘denied boarding compensation’’ from the airline unless:
- You have not fully complied with the airline’s ticketing, check-in and
reconfirmation requirements, or you are not acceptable for transportation
under the airline’s usual rules and practices; or
- You are denied boarding because the flight is canceled; or
You are denied boarding because a smaller capacity aircraft was substituted
for safety or operational reasons; or
- On a flight operated with an aircraft having 60 or fewer seats, you are denied
boarding due to safety-related weight/balance restrictions that limit payload; or
- You are offered accommodations in a section of the aircraft other than
specified in your ticket, at no extra charge (a passenger seated in a section
for which a lower fare is charged must be given an appropriate refund); or
- The airline is able to place you on another flight or flights that are planned
to reach your next stopover or final destination within one hour of the
planned arrival time of your original flight.
IDB / Involuntarily Denied Boarding on AA & Compensation (master thread)
Oct 13, 2014, 2:51 pm
#16
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: NYC
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Hmmm. I know what it literally means, what I don't know is what it means in practice.
For example are CFRs just advisory? If they are disobeyed can we file a claim with DOT?
The difference b/w what something means in principle vs in practice is best explained with this example. I've been to small claims court where the arbitrator awarded me $x. But that didn't mean much since I had to get the other party to pay it (i.e. the Sheriff's office won't get involved).
For example are CFRs just advisory? If they are disobeyed can we file a claim with DOT?
The difference b/w what something means in principle vs in practice is best explained with this example. I've been to small claims court where the arbitrator awarded me $x. But that didn't mean much since I had to get the other party to pay it (i.e. the Sheriff's office won't get involved).
Oct 13, 2014, 2:54 pm
#17
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Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,273
You still don't understand. One gets to keep the IDB compensation and the original ticket which the carrier uses for a later flight (or refunds to the traveler if traveler wishes to make his own alternate arrangements).
http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/publi...tm#overbooking
http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/publi...tm#overbooking
Oct 13, 2014, 3:05 pm
#18
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Portland
Posts: 11,569
The person accepting the $500 voucher is not likely to ever qualify for the $1400 in cash, because the person accepting the voucher is a volunteer who self selected. If they don't get enough volunteers, the GAs select someone to deny boarding, who is then entitled to the compensation set forth by the government. The person involuntarily denied boarding is not likely to be the same person that would have taken the $500 voucher.
Oct 13, 2014, 4:09 pm
#19
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,273
The person accepting the $500 voucher is not likely to ever qualify for the $1400 in cash, because the person accepting the voucher is a volunteer who self selected. If they don't get enough volunteers, the GAs select someone to deny boarding, who is then entitled to the compensation set forth by the government. The person involuntarily denied boarding is not likely to be the same person that would have taken the $500 voucher.
a) I get on the plane (win)
b) I get IDBed (win)
Oct 13, 2014, 4:15 pm
#20
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Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry: BlackBerry8530/5.0.0.1030 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/417)
I get it that the IDB and Volunteer would be different people, but if I didn't have a seat allocated to me, I would just wait and hope its me that gets IDBed. After all there are only two outcomes:
a) I get on the plane (win)
b) I get IDBed (win)
That's fine if that's how you feel. But others, who might not be in any hurry to get to their destination, would rather accept a voucher of a generous amount and transportation on a later flight than roll the dice and risk getting nothing, other than transportation on their ticketed flight.
Originally Posted by inpd
The person accepting the $500 voucher is not likely to ever qualify for the $1400 in cash, because the person accepting the voucher is a volunteer who self selected. If they don't get enough volunteers, the GAs select someone to deny boarding, who is then entitled to the compensation set forth by the government. The person involuntarily denied boarding is not likely to be the same person that would have taken the $500 voucher.
a) I get on the plane (win)
b) I get IDBed (win)
Oct 13, 2014, 4:23 pm
#21
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: USA
Programs: Chase Sapphire Reserve, WFBF
Posts: 1,573
For involuntary denied boarding, there is no 'negotiation' with the gate agent. If you are involuntarily denied boarding, generally speaking unless you get a completely incompetent agent, they will give you what is required by federal law, as there are strict penalties for violating the law. However, IDB is extremely, extremely rare so that is why you will not find many folks on here with experience.
Oct 13, 2014, 5:16 pm
#22
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: BOS/ORH
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Posts: 18,323
OP is serious. Based some recent posts, OP wants to maximize compensation
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ameri...xpect-get.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ameri...who-write.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ameri...pensation.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/airbe...us-flight.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...u-trouble.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/hilto...-airlines.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ameri...xpect-get.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ameri...who-write.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ameri...pensation.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/airbe...us-flight.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...u-trouble.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/hilto...-airlines.html
Oct 13, 2014, 6:34 pm
#23
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Programs: DL-Platinum / AS-PlatPro / Hyatt - Glob / Hilton-Diamond
Posts: 1,573
Between this and another thread, I'm scratching my head trying to figure out what the OP is asking or trying to accomplish.
As already stated several times, IDBs are very rare. You don't just simply set yourself up to not have a seat assignment then not board the plane.
You need to check-in by a certain time or your reservation will be cancelled. This is per the Contract of Carriage.
If the airline is unable at check-in to give a seat assignment, then you'll be placed on the PALL list as an oversold passenger (OS).
Usually, at some point closer to departure, there will be enough no-shows (mis-connects, SDC etc) that all the OS passengers can be accommodated. You will be paged to pick up your boarding pass and to board. If you fail to do so, it's not an IDB, it's you failed to be at the boarding gate wihin (I think it's) 15 minutes of departure.
If the way the flight is trending, the Gate Agt thinks they might not be able to accommodate all confirmed reservations, then they'll start soliciting for volunteers (VDBs). They are required to do this per law before they can arbitrarily IDB anyone.
It's easiest if the OS passengers are willing to volunteer so you will probably be asked first. It is perfectly within your right to decline, hoping for an IDB. But that strategy will not work 99.9% of the time. The airline will simply solicit others for VDB. Once the Agent determines that indeed they need to convert some volunteers into actual VDBs, then they'll remove the volunteer's seat assignment and give you a boarding pass with the volunteer's old seat number. If you refuse this boarding pass, you're not an IDB. You elected to turn down a seat the airline was giving you, making you (in essense) a no show if you don't board.
There are folks who actively seek out VDB opportunities.
If that's something you wish to persue then keep in mind that having a seat assignment or not is irrelevant. You want to be at the gate listening for an announcement for volunteers. Or even check with the Gate Agt as soon as the gate is open to see if they might be looking for volunteers. If they end up needing VDBs, the first folks to offer to give up their seats will have the best chance of getting the VDB. In most cases, you won't know until right at departure time. Most volunteers are thanked and told to board during the last few minutes.
As for trying to persue IDBs, it just won't work.
The airline will keep increasing the VDB offer until they have enough volunteers to accommodate all of the OS.
It is a very rare case where the VDB offer is so high that they won't go higher yet. It would have to be something like a SuperBowl why they couldn't get enough volunteers. Yield Management knows that, and adjusts the amount they're willing to oversell accordingly.
FYI ... the dynamics have changed a little over the years, but I was a Gate AAgent in the 1980-90s
As already stated several times, IDBs are very rare. You don't just simply set yourself up to not have a seat assignment then not board the plane.
You need to check-in by a certain time or your reservation will be cancelled. This is per the Contract of Carriage.
If the airline is unable at check-in to give a seat assignment, then you'll be placed on the PALL list as an oversold passenger (OS).
Usually, at some point closer to departure, there will be enough no-shows (mis-connects, SDC etc) that all the OS passengers can be accommodated. You will be paged to pick up your boarding pass and to board. If you fail to do so, it's not an IDB, it's you failed to be at the boarding gate wihin (I think it's) 15 minutes of departure.
If the way the flight is trending, the Gate Agt thinks they might not be able to accommodate all confirmed reservations, then they'll start soliciting for volunteers (VDBs). They are required to do this per law before they can arbitrarily IDB anyone.
It's easiest if the OS passengers are willing to volunteer so you will probably be asked first. It is perfectly within your right to decline, hoping for an IDB. But that strategy will not work 99.9% of the time. The airline will simply solicit others for VDB. Once the Agent determines that indeed they need to convert some volunteers into actual VDBs, then they'll remove the volunteer's seat assignment and give you a boarding pass with the volunteer's old seat number. If you refuse this boarding pass, you're not an IDB. You elected to turn down a seat the airline was giving you, making you (in essense) a no show if you don't board.
There are folks who actively seek out VDB opportunities.
If that's something you wish to persue then keep in mind that having a seat assignment or not is irrelevant. You want to be at the gate listening for an announcement for volunteers. Or even check with the Gate Agt as soon as the gate is open to see if they might be looking for volunteers. If they end up needing VDBs, the first folks to offer to give up their seats will have the best chance of getting the VDB. In most cases, you won't know until right at departure time. Most volunteers are thanked and told to board during the last few minutes.
As for trying to persue IDBs, it just won't work.
The airline will keep increasing the VDB offer until they have enough volunteers to accommodate all of the OS.
It is a very rare case where the VDB offer is so high that they won't go higher yet. It would have to be something like a SuperBowl why they couldn't get enough volunteers. Yield Management knows that, and adjusts the amount they're willing to oversell accordingly.
FYI ... the dynamics have changed a little over the years, but I was a Gate AAgent in the 1980-90s
Oct 13, 2014, 7:14 pm
#24
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: MSN
Programs: AA, BAEC Gold
Posts: 3,921
I was on the last flight of the day ORD to MSN a while back and no one took them up on the VDB offers. The GA eventually removed the person who had been last to check in from the plane. So it does happen, but not often.
Oct 13, 2014, 7:43 pm
#25
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: San Jose, CA, USA
Posts: 546
OP is serious. Based some recent posts, OP wants to maximize compensation
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ameri...xpect-get.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ameri...who-write.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ameri...pensation.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/airbe...us-flight.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...u-trouble.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/hilto...-airlines.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ameri...xpect-get.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ameri...who-write.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ameri...pensation.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/airbe...us-flight.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...u-trouble.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/hilto...-airlines.html
Oct 13, 2014, 7:45 pm
#26
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Portland
Posts: 11,569
It may be a bit different on those ERJ flights - they don't have to pay IDB compensation if you are bumped for weight and balance reasons and the aircraft has fewer than 60 seats. Not sure if that was the case there, but if so, that leaves little motivation for the gate agents to increase compensation to a level that it will be accepted.
Oct 13, 2014, 7:48 pm
#27
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: BOS/ORH
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Or if they have enough time, look for people they an IDB and get to destination within the 1 hour so they don't need to pay
Oct 13, 2014, 7:51 pm
#28
Join Date: Oct 2006
Programs: AA EXP
Posts: 1,635
Oct 13, 2014, 8:01 pm
#29
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: MSN
Programs: AA, BAEC Gold
Posts: 3,921
It may be a bit different on those ERJ flights - they don't have to pay IDB compensation if you are bumped for weight and balance reasons and the aircraft has fewer than 60 seats. Not sure if that was the case there, but if so, that leaves little motivation for the gate agents to increase compensation to a level that it will be accepted.
It's a three hour bus ride. They once offered us a hotel after a misconnect but it was a one hour bus ride each way so we took a voucher for the bus home instead.
Oct 13, 2014, 8:08 pm
#30
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