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IDB / Involuntarily Denied Boarding on AA & Compensation (master thread)

IDB / Involuntarily Denied Boarding on AA & Compensation (master thread)

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Old Feb 25, 19, 1:28 pm   -   Wikipost
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IDB / Involuntarily Denied Boarding on AA & Compensation


NOTE: See AA Bump Rates; compensation for VDB / Voluntary Denied Boarding (consolidated) for VOLUNTARY denied boarding.

Passengers involuntarily denied boarding on AA are denied usually after calls for volunteers to accept vouchers (and occasionally variable other benefits), usually beginning at $200 or $300 but possibly going significantly higher, depending on passenger response. See more below, from AA Conditions of Carriage.

Link to AA Conditions of Carriage, "Oversales"

"DBC" (involuntarily) denied boarding compensation is governed in the USA by "14 CFR 250.5 - Amount of denied boarding compensation for passengers denied boarding involuntarily".

Link to CFR §250.5

CFR §250.2b Carriers to request volunteers for denied boarding.

(a) In the event of an oversold flight, every carrier shall request volunteers for denied boarding before using any other boarding priority. A “volunteer” is a person who responds to the carrier's request for volunteers and who willingly accepts the carriers' offer of compensation, in any amount, in exchange for relinquishing the confirmed reserved space. Any other passenger denied boarding is considered for purposes of this part to have been denied boarding involuntarily, even if that passenger accepts the denied boarding compensation.

(b) Every carrier shall advise each passenger solicited to volunteer for denied boarding, no later than the time the carrier solicits that passenger to volunteer, whether he or she is in danger of being involuntarily denied boarding and, if so, the compensation the carrier is obligated to pay if the passenger is involuntarily denied boarding. If an insufficient number of volunteers come forward, the carrier may deny boarding to other passengers in accordance with its boarding priority rules.

14 CFR §250.9 Written explanation of denied boarding compensation and boarding priorities, and verbal notification of denied boarding compensation.

(a) Every carrier shall furnish passengers who are denied boarding involuntarily from flights on which they hold confirmed reserved space immediately after the denied boarding occurs, a written statement explaining the terms, conditions, and limitations of denied boarding compensation, and describing the carriers' boarding priority rules and criteria. The carrier shall also furnish the statement to any person upon request at all airport ticket selling positions which are in the charge of a person employed exclusively by the carrier, or by it jointly with another person or persons, and at all boarding locations being used by the carrier.
Link to US Dept. of Transportation Aviation Consumer Protection Division's "Fly-Rights - A Consumer Guide to Air Travel" section on Overbooking

In the European Union, EC261/2004 governs denied boarding compensation.

Link to EC261 / EC 261/2004 complaints and AA (master thread)

On American Airlines, you are sometimes ineligible for IDB as allowed by the USDOT:

Code:
If a flight is oversold (more passengers hold confirmed reservations than 
 there are seats available), no one may be denied boarding against his or her will 
 until airline personnel first ask for volunteers who will give up their reservation 
 willingly, in exchange for compensation of the airline’s choosing. If there are not 
 enough volunteers, other passengers may be denied boarding involuntarily in 
 accordance with the following boarding priority of American. In such events, 
 American will usually deny boarding based upon check-in time, but we may also 
 consider factors such as severe hardships, fare paid, and status within the 
 AAdvantage® program.
 
 If you are denied boarding involuntarily, you are entitled to a payment of 
 ‘‘denied boarding compensation’’ from the airline unless:
 
 - You have not fully complied with the airline’s ticketing, check-in and 
 reconfirmation requirements, or you are not acceptable for transportation 
 under the airline’s usual rules and practices; or
 
 - You are denied boarding because the flight is canceled; or
 
 You are denied boarding because a smaller capacity aircraft was substituted 
 for safety or operational reasons; or
 
 - On a flight operated with an aircraft having 60 or fewer seats, you are denied 
 boarding due to safety-related weight/balance restrictions that limit payload; or
 
 - You are offered accommodations in a section of the aircraft other than
 specified in your ticket, at no extra charge (a passenger seated in a section 
 for which a lower fare is charged must be given an appropriate refund); or
 
 - The airline is able to place you on another flight or flights that are planned 
 to reach your next stopover or final destination within one hour of the 
 planned arrival time of your original flight.
The previous thread is http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ameri...solidated.html

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Old Feb 25, 19, 12:21 pm
  #196  
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Originally Posted by asf-07 View Post
Not to harp too much on technicalities, but when someone volunteers to take a different flight and gets a voucher, this is not IDB, this is VDB.
It is far from technical. It is the essence of the DOT rule. Carriers are required to first seek volunteers because it makes for a win-win. Happy carrier avoids oversale and happy passenger who doesn't mind a reroute gets some funny money.
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Old Feb 25, 19, 12:23 pm
  #197  
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Originally Posted by OSSYULYYZ View Post
Interesting. I was IDB'd on several flights in 2014 and 2015. In fact, 90% of the flights that I booked. Only once when I booked through Delta did I get Compensation. I have never flown American Airlines in recent years, and that is why I am obsessed (not sure if this is the best term in this case) with IDBs.
If your flights were within Canada, USA DOT IDB compensation regulations would not apply.
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Old Feb 25, 19, 12:27 pm
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Originally Posted by asf-07 View Post
Not to harp too much on technicalities, but when someone volunteers to take a different flight and gets a voucher, this is not IDB, this is VDB.
No one volunteered. They oversold, and we each got 1300USD. Now it has increased to 1350USD tmk.

Originally Posted by MSPeconomist View Post
If your flights were within Canada, USA DOT IDB compensation regulations would not apply.
Obviously. I am saying there was a Delta US Domestic Flight that I got IDB'd from. Where do you draw conclusions about anything from Canada?
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Old Feb 25, 19, 12:33 pm
  #199  
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Originally Posted by OSSYULYYZ View Post
No one volunteered. They oversold, and we each got 1300USD. Now it has increased to 1350USD tmk.


Obviously. I am saying there was a Delta US Domestic Flight that I got IDB'd from. Where do you draw conclusions about anything from Canada?
Your location as listed under your username is YUL, which is an airport in Canada (or Quebec if you prefer). You refer to not having received any compensation for some IDBs (not counting the DL flight where you did receive compensation, which could have been transborder, USA domestic, or international and DL would have been obligagted to pay compensation with few exceptions), and I'm therefore guessing that one reason you might not have received IDB compensation for those other cases would be that no compensation was required.
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Old Feb 25, 19, 12:39 pm
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist View Post
Your location as listed under your username is YUL, which is an airport in Canada (or Quebec if you prefer). You refer to not having received any compensation for some IDBs (not counting the DL flight where you did receive compensation, which could have been transborder, USA domestic, or international and DL would have been obligagted to pay compensation with few exceptions), and I'm therefore guessing that one reason you might not have received IDB compensation for those other cases would be that no compensation was required.
Canada. Québec is not a country and hopefully will never be. It is a nation w/i Canada. My username is OSSYULYYZ. OSS for One Stop Security. YUL for Montréal and YYZ for Toronto.

Anyways, I posted this on AA because I was referencing American Airlines specifically. The rules of Canada IDB are different between airlines (Air Canada gives 800CAD and WestJet gives 1350CAD). I do not recall ever specifically mentioning Canada Domestic Flights as I was referencing US Domestic and Int'l Flights. I don't see how my post has anything to do with Canada Domestic. It is like @MSPeconomist posting on a European page about EC261. I don't see a correlation.
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Old Feb 25, 19, 12:57 pm
  #201  
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HI seems to be the really only routes in which there are regular VB and maybe even some IVBs. Not sure why given you just don't see that many VBs anymore.
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Old Feb 25, 19, 5:15 pm
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist View Post
Your location as listed under your username is YUL, which is an airport in Canada (or Quebec if you prefer). You refer to not having received any compensation for some IDBs (not counting the DL flight where you did receive compensation, which could have been transborder, USA domestic, or international and DL would have been obligagted to pay compensation with few exceptions), and I'm therefore guessing that one reason you might not have received IDB compensation for those other cases would be that no compensation was required.
In other words, Elementary, my dear Watson. Nicely done sleuthing.

Except he is right, the 1995 referendum was close but no cigar.
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Old Feb 25, 19, 5:18 pm
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Originally Posted by simpleflyer View Post
In other words, Elementary, my dear Watson. Nicely done sleuthing.

Except he is right, the 1995 referendum was close but no cigar.
I again don't see how this is relevant. I was specifically referencing US DOT rules for US originating Domestic/Int'l Flights.
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Old Feb 25, 19, 5:22 pm
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I just checked, the flight is sold out but not overbooked. It's a 50 seat RJ with no first class. My feeling is that AA doesn't overbooked that flight because they know they will need those seats more often than not. Smaller planes are also less commonly overbooked than larger planes, just due to percentage probability.
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Old Feb 25, 19, 5:25 pm
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Originally Posted by standbyalldtime View Post
I just checked, the flight is sold out but not overbooked. It's a 50 seat RJ with no first class. My feeling is that AA doesn't overbooked that flight because they know they will need those seats more often than not. Smaller planes are also less commonly overbooked than larger planes, just due to percentage probability.
Can I ask what tool you used? I used ExpertFlyer, and it told me that 3 Premium Seats were still available. The Switch Seat Tool told me there was only 1. I got my suspicions based on the discrepancy and the fact that it is longer on Google Flights.
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Old Feb 25, 19, 5:44 pm
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There are 50 ticketed and confirmed passengers and 50 seats on the flight. Combined with no seats for sale, leads to the conclusion that AA policy/algorithm is to not oversell that flight.
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Old Feb 25, 19, 6:16 pm
  #207  
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Originally Posted by OSSYULYYZ View Post
Can I ask what tool you used? I used ExpertFlyer, and it told me that 3 Premium Seats were still available. The Switch Seat Tool told me there was only 1. I got my suspicions based on the discrepancy and the fact that it is longer on Google Flights.
Something to keep in mind with seat maps... AA doesn't always show you all available seats when you try to switch seats, a few of them can be blocked or reserved for elites. Also, seat maps (especially when 3 rows are blocked) are a relatively poor indication of loads.

I would do what was mentioned upthread and check if it is at F0/Y0.

Edit: someone mentioned no more seats are being sold with all tickets sold. I think you will be fine, but please report back.
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Old Feb 25, 19, 6:58 pm
  #208  
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Originally Posted by OSSYULYYZ View Post
Can I ask what tool you used? I used ExpertFlyer, and it told me that 3 Premium Seats were still available. The Switch Seat Tool told me there was only 1. I got my suspicions based on the discrepancy and the fact that it is longer on Google Flights.
The seat map, whether viewed on ExpertFlyer or AA.com will typically NOT give you any useful indication about whether a flight is full/overbooked.

You can tell if a flight is full on ExpertFlyer using Flight Availability — J0 Y0 will tell you AA is not selling any more seats. The flight is full, and it may be overbooked, but there’s no way to know for sure of the latter without asking AA.

That said, even with Y>0, it’s possible the flight is full/overbooked.
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Old Feb 25, 19, 7:09 pm
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Originally Posted by newyorkgeorge View Post
Remember technology is getting much better and AA is more able to hon in on typical number of no shows or last minute flight changes. ... The number of people that do show up (or show up in time) for a flight is truly unbelievable.
It would not surprise me to find that they tracked percentage likelihood of no-shows, late-shows, or last-minute changes by passenger, and took this into account when deciding how much to oversell a flight.
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Old Feb 25, 19, 7:14 pm
  #210  
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Originally Posted by Steve M View Post
It would not surprise me to find that they tracked percentage likelihood of no-shows, late-shows, or last-minute changes by passenger, and took this into account when deciding how much to oversell a flight.
Of course. Airlines can do all kinds of analytics on big data. They're probably doing something very sophisticated to predict no shows and getting the estimates very accurate.
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