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AA Daily LAX-HND Service Feb 2016 w/ 787-8, applies DFW-HND

AA Daily LAX-HND Service Feb 2016 w/ 787-8, applies DFW-HND

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Old Jun 23, 16, 2:50 pm   -   Wikipost
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AA Begin Daily 787-8 LAX-HND Service 11 Feb 2016, DFW-HND on application

FORT WORTH, Texas, Nov. 4, 2015 /PRNewswire/ -- American Airlines will offer customers daily, year-round, nonstop service to Tokyo's Haneda Airport (HND) from its trans-Pacific gateway at Los Angeles International Airport (LAX) beginning Feb. 11, 2016. Customers can book travel on the new route starting Sunday, Nov. 8. American recently secured takeoff and landing time slots at Haneda Airport from the Japanese aviation authorities, which will allow the commencement of the flight.

The new service will operate on the following daily schedule (all times local):

LAX-HND
AA27
Departs LAX at 6 p.m.
Arrives at HND at 11 p.m. the following day

HND-LAX
AA26
Departs HND at 1:30 a.m.
Arrives at LAX at 6:20 p.m. the previous day

Link
Link to Dallas Morning News article on DFW-HND 23 Jun 2016 (comparing DFW vs. MSP for Haneda service)

Link to Dallas a Morning News Aviation Blog article on DFW-HND application, 4 Apr 2016

Please see this archived thread for posts relating to AA statement of intent and delays.

Previously (as posted by Exec_Plat), wandering_fred and ashill:

DOT Docket is DOT-OST-2010-0018
AA's application to fly LAX-HND (and motion to transfer DL's authority to fly SEA-LAX) is document DOT-OST-2010-0018-0384

On June 14, 2015, the DOT ruled that Delta would retain the HND slot for use on SEA-HND with dormancy conditions that require Delta to operate the flight every day of the year.

On June 17, 2015, Delta notified the DOT in a letter that it would "determined that it is not commercially feasible to operate the slots allocated to Delta for Seattle-Haneda service on a consistent daily basis year-round". The last Delta SEA-HND flight will operate on September 30, 2015. Delta will return the slots to the DOT on October 1, 2015, at which point the slots will automatically revert to American.

American service on LAX-HND could begin (err rather could have begun) as early as October 1, 2015.

While DOT has granted rights to AA, the actual time slots in which AA can arrive and depart HND are subject to negotiation with HND and other carriers.

- It is not clear that DL had slots every day of the year, and in fact DL may have been required to surrender the slots on August 15, 2015.
- AA needs to secure daily slots for HND, however the annual winter 2015 (W15) slot conference was on June 23, 2015, only a few days after DL notified DOT they would surrender the route.
- It is unknown when AA will acquire new time slots. Purportedly the IATA slot conference for S15 will be 10-12 November. Going by the published calendar Oct 8 begins this activity: https://www.iata.org/events/Document...activities.pdf
-There may be some motion with daytime slots (Aviationweek):
The U.S. Transportation Department (DOT) recently briefed U.S. carriers on the Japanese proposal, several people familiar with the matter told Aviation Daily. As it is currently understood, the proposal would shift some of the slots available to U.S. carriers to daytime hours. It may also include one additional slot pair, which would likely not be for a daily flight
- Per the published guidelines, the SAL Deadline is October 29, 2015, at which time the airport shall have made their initial decision on all slots to be allocated for the coming season. [One assumes horsetrading then begins.]
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Old Jan 24, 16, 5:24 pm
  #106  
 
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Originally Posted by Fanjet View Post
I'm not understanding the math. Currently there are 8 HND-U.S. flights. Four on NH/JL. Four on UA/AA/DL/HA. If 10 daytime slot pairs are opened up while 2 nighttime ones are reduced. Doesn't that make a net increase of 8 slot pairs total, not 4 (going from 8 to 16)? Or are NH/JL currently utilizing some daytime slot pairs?
Going from 8 to 12 (10 daytime, 2 nighttime) is a change of 4, no?
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Old Jan 24, 16, 5:39 pm
  #107  
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Originally Posted by flyingeph12 View Post
Going from 8 to 12 (10 daytime, 2 nighttime) is a change of 4, no?
But that was my question. Are the Japanese carriers currently using daytime slot pairs for their HND-U.S. service; so there aren't 10 new daytime slot pairs being added, but 6? If that's the case, then yes, it's a net gain of 4 slot pairs. If they are using the nighttime slot pairs like the U.S. carriers, then it is a net gain 8 slot pairs over the existing 8.

Last edited by Fanjet; Jan 24, 16 at 5:46 pm
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Old Jan 24, 16, 5:54 pm
  #108  
 
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Originally Posted by Fanjet View Post
But that was my question. Are the Japanese carriers currently using daytime slot pairs for their HND-U.S. service
Currently there are NO daytime HND-US route authorities for any airline.

Joejones' communication what that nighttime authorities would be reduced *to* 2, not be reduced *by* 2.

Last edited by radarskiy; Jan 24, 16 at 5:56 pm Reason: additional reference to earlier post
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Old Jan 24, 16, 5:54 pm
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Originally Posted by Fanjet View Post
But that was my question. Are the Japanese carriers currently using daytime slot pairs for their HND-U.S. service; so there aren't 10 new daytime slot pairs being added, but 6? If that's the case, then yes, it's a net gain of 4 slot pairs. If they are using the nighttime slot pairs like the U.S. carriers, then it is a net gain 8 slot pairs over the existing 8.
The Japanese carriers are using nighttime slots. JL's HND-SFO leaves at 12:05 AM, NH's HND-LAX also at 12:05 AM, and JL's and NH's HND-HNL both leave around 10:30 PM (this last one is confusing -- I thought the slots were meant for departure after midnight?)
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Old Jan 24, 16, 5:59 pm
  #110  
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Originally Posted by radarskiy View Post
Currently there are NO daytime HND-US route authorities for any airline.

Joejones' communication what that nighttime authorities would be reduced *to* 2, not be reduced *by* 2.
OK. So they will be going from 8 nighttime slot pairs to 2 total. And not be reducing the nighttime slot pairs by 2, from 8 to 6. Got it. Now the math makes sense. 10 (daytime) +2 (nighttime) = 12 (total).
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Old Jan 24, 16, 5:59 pm
  #111  
 
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How many times did Delta actually serve SEA-HND during their "non-cancelled" previous winter season? It would be interesting to see how long it will take AA to have accumulated more service than Delta provided with the HND route authority.
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Old Jan 24, 16, 6:20 pm
  #112  
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Originally Posted by radarskiy View Post
How many times did Delta actually serve SEA-HND during their "non-cancelled" previous winter season? It would be interesting to see how long it will take AA to have accumulated more service than Delta provided with the HND route authority.
I'm not sure. But they really abused that route authority. Aside from the equipment downgauging, they reduced the weekly frequencies. Suspended it in the off season. Actually, how long did they have that route authority? Two years?

But here's the hypocrisy. The reason why DL could not make that flight work was because of the nighttime slots. That would not have been the case if it used daytime slots at HND.
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Old Jan 24, 16, 6:47 pm
  #113  
 
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Just started a new speculation thread on the Japan forum: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...eculation.html
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Old Jan 24, 16, 8:40 pm
  #114  
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Originally Posted by bbmatt View Post
Oh, I meant to non-US destinations. If delta successfully lobbies DOT to reject the deal wholesale, wont they have to/want to give the 10 slots to someone else?
Ahh, now I see what you were saying.

I suppose they could do that, but that would make NH and JAL angry, as they want to fly daytime HND departures to the USA.

Originally Posted by Fanjet View Post
I'm not sure. But they really abused that route authority. Aside from the equipment downgauging, they reduced the weekly frequencies. Suspended it in the off season. Actually, how long did they have that route authority? Two years?
The transfer from DTW to SEA happened sometime in 2013, so DL had it almost two years.

For the six month winter season of 2015, DL planned to fly the route 17 times out of 182 days, prompting AA to petition the DOT to take it away.

Originally Posted by Fanjet View Post
But here's the hypocrisy. The reason why DL could not make that flight work was because of the nighttime slots. That would not have been the case if it used daytime slots at HND.
You may be right, but I disagree. SEA has significantly less TYO O&D than LAX or SFO, and IMO, the lack of O&D made SEA-HND extremely challenging. According to AA, in 2014, LAX featured 593 TYO O&D PDEW while SEA had but 129 TYO O&D PDEW. Not only did DL fly to HND but also flies to NRT plus NH flies NRT to SEA. It's just too small a market.

Delta made excuses to the DOT, but didn't mention the nighttime slots as having hurt the SEA-HND route. Delta did say this in response to AA's petition:

Due to low forecast demand this winter and the rapidly expanding
but not-yet-mature Seattle hub, it was commercially necessary to make seasonal reductions this winter.
The case for Seattle-Haneda is even stronger today. Delta is moving aggressively to develop Seattle as a hub with new Delta and Delta Connection-operated service, both domestic and international. While it has been challenging to establish Haneda service, as we continue to implement our Seattle strategy we have seen passenger traffic and profitability surge. In fact, Delta’s Summer Season SEA-HND 2014 performance improved by an astounding 54% percent year-over-year. Buoyed by this unexpectedly strong summer 2014 performance, Delta has offered a full pattern of daily Seattle-Haneda service in summer 2015 and anticipates a more regular schedule next winter.
http://www.regulations.gov/contentSt...ontentType=pdf

Lotsa excuses from Delta, but no whining about the nighttime slots.

Why would nighttime slots kill doom SEA-HND while SFO-HND and LAX-HND apparently work with nighttime slots? Sure, DL would like daytime slots at HND instead of the current arrangement (who wouldn't?) but I think it's a stretch to say that SEA was impacted by the permitted timing when it's simply too small a market. On top of that, DL's lack of connection opportunities at HND will make any DL HND route more challenging than for AA/JL or UA/NH.

AA's filings showed that no other airline treated HND as a seasonal market yet DL argued that it should be allowed to treat SEA-HND as seasonal. AA argued that TYO is not a seasonal market from the USA for any airline, except DL's assertion that SEA-HND was seasonal.
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Old Jan 24, 16, 9:06 pm
  #115  
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Originally Posted by Fanjet View Post
I'm not understanding the math. Currently there are 8 HND-U.S. flights. Four on NH/JL. Four on UA/AA/DL/HA. If 10 daytime slot pairs are opened up while 2 nighttime ones are reduced. Doesn't that make a net increase of 8 slot pairs total, not 4 (going from 8 to 16)? Or are NH/JL currently utilizing some daytime slot pairs?
According to the article, only 2 night time slots remain. A reduction of 6 night time, and the addition of 10 daytime seems to be the direction right now. If HA will try to hang on to the both the night time slots, it could put NH and JL in a good position for the daytime slots provided an equal country split of the total number.
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Old Jan 24, 16, 9:17 pm
  #116  
 
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Originally Posted by CPH-Flyer View Post
According to the article, only 2 night time slots remain. A reduction of 6 night time, and the addition of 10 daytime seems to be the direction right now. If HA will try to hang on to the both the night time slots, it could put NH and JL in a good position for the daytime slots provided an equal country split of the total number.
Only airline I imagine that would want the additional night time slot is HAL to start KOA-HND. Its the only remaining potential flight left that makes sense with those times.
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Old Jan 24, 16, 9:38 pm
  #117  
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Originally Posted by Longboater View Post
Only airline I imagine that would want the additional night time slot is HAL to start KOA-HND. Its the only remaining potential flight left that makes sense with those times.
I don't think there's an "additional" nighttime slot; the current 8 nighttime flights (4 for USA and 4 for JAPAN) is reduced to 2, one for each country's carriers. If the overnight hours work for HA for HNL, then I have to assume that the overnight hours work for NH and JL, and one of them will likely keep its overnight HI flight. HA would likely get to keep its nighttime HNL flight, and I doubt that HA would win any daytime frequencies.

Of the 5 daytime flights for USA carriers, assume the current 3 flights are switched to daytime, and that would leave two new daytime frequencies for AA, DL and UA to fight over.
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Old Jan 25, 16, 12:05 am
  #118  
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Originally Posted by Longboater View Post
Only airline I imagine that would want the additional night time slot is HAL to start KOA-HND. Its the only remaining potential flight left that makes sense with those times.
Since there will be 2 nighttime slots left, wouldn't that be 1 each for a U.S. and Japanese carrier? I believe HA will be starting HNL-NRT in a few months. So perhaps they will keep the nighttime slots for their HNL-HND service. However, as long as strict slot constraints remain for U.S. carriers at HND, HA should never be allowed to operate KOA-HND.
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Old Jan 25, 16, 1:29 am
  #119  
 
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Originally Posted by CPH-Flyer View Post
Since AA would as minimum need to maintain a code share on NRT-LAX there could be some discussions with JAL on who gets to maintain the Narita route. JL may also be interested in moving Los Angeles to a Haneda departure.
Actually, this isn't true. If I interpret the Narita Rule correctly, they need to maintain flights to the same country, not necessarily the same airport.

Last edited by FireEmblemPride; Jan 25, 16 at 1:35 am
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Old Jan 25, 16, 1:45 am
  #120  
 
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I'm planning to book LAX-HND in June in Y and apply a SWU. How likely is SWU gonna clear from Y to J?
Thanks
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