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AA Daily LAX-HND Service Feb 2016 w/ 787-8, applies DFW-HND

AA Daily LAX-HND Service Feb 2016 w/ 787-8, applies DFW-HND

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Old Jun 23, 16, 2:50 pm   -   Wikipost
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AA Begin Daily 787-8 LAX-HND Service 11 Feb 2016, DFW-HND on application

FORT WORTH, Texas, Nov. 4, 2015 /PRNewswire/ -- American Airlines will offer customers daily, year-round, nonstop service to Tokyo's Haneda Airport (HND) from its trans-Pacific gateway at Los Angeles International Airport (LAX) beginning Feb. 11, 2016. Customers can book travel on the new route starting Sunday, Nov. 8. American recently secured takeoff and landing time slots at Haneda Airport from the Japanese aviation authorities, which will allow the commencement of the flight.

The new service will operate on the following daily schedule (all times local):

LAX-HND
AA27
Departs LAX at 6 p.m.
Arrives at HND at 11 p.m. the following day

HND-LAX
AA26
Departs HND at 1:30 a.m.
Arrives at LAX at 6:20 p.m. the previous day

Link
Link to Dallas Morning News article on DFW-HND 23 Jun 2016 (comparing DFW vs. MSP for Haneda service)

Link to Dallas a Morning News Aviation Blog article on DFW-HND application, 4 Apr 2016

Please see this archived thread for posts relating to AA statement of intent and delays.

Previously (as posted by Exec_Plat), wandering_fred and ashill:

DOT Docket is DOT-OST-2010-0018
AA's application to fly LAX-HND (and motion to transfer DL's authority to fly SEA-LAX) is document DOT-OST-2010-0018-0384

On June 14, 2015, the DOT ruled that Delta would retain the HND slot for use on SEA-HND with dormancy conditions that require Delta to operate the flight every day of the year.

On June 17, 2015, Delta notified the DOT in a letter that it would "determined that it is not commercially feasible to operate the slots allocated to Delta for Seattle-Haneda service on a consistent daily basis year-round". The last Delta SEA-HND flight will operate on September 30, 2015. Delta will return the slots to the DOT on October 1, 2015, at which point the slots will automatically revert to American.

American service on LAX-HND could begin (err rather could have begun) as early as October 1, 2015.

While DOT has granted rights to AA, the actual time slots in which AA can arrive and depart HND are subject to negotiation with HND and other carriers.

- It is not clear that DL had slots every day of the year, and in fact DL may have been required to surrender the slots on August 15, 2015.
- AA needs to secure daily slots for HND, however the annual winter 2015 (W15) slot conference was on June 23, 2015, only a few days after DL notified DOT they would surrender the route.
- It is unknown when AA will acquire new time slots. Purportedly the IATA slot conference for S15 will be 10-12 November. Going by the published calendar Oct 8 begins this activity: https://www.iata.org/events/Document...activities.pdf
-There may be some motion with daytime slots (Aviationweek):
The U.S. Transportation Department (DOT) recently briefed U.S. carriers on the Japanese proposal, several people familiar with the matter told Aviation Daily. As it is currently understood, the proposal would shift some of the slots available to U.S. carriers to daytime hours. It may also include one additional slot pair, which would likely not be for a daily flight
- Per the published guidelines, the SAL Deadline is October 29, 2015, at which time the airport shall have made their initial decision on all slots to be allocated for the coming season. [One assumes horsetrading then begins.]
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Old Jan 22, 16, 1:25 am
  #91  
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Originally Posted by joejones View Post
The slot numbers are not quite decided, from what I understand. There were supposedly nine daytime slot pairs left over following the last international slot allocation, and most if not all of these were to be eventually used for US flights. It's possible that they are pushing for a 5:4 split so that DL gets 3 slots, JL and NH each get 2 and AA and UA each get 1. Thus there would be "parity" between DL and its two transpac JV competitors, each having four routes (including their existing night flights). Of course the JVs would have the massive advantage of feed beyond Tokyo, which DL does not have at the moment. Most likely, each faction will move its most competitive business routes (NYC, LAX, SFO, maybe ORD) to HND, while "fortress" routes like DFW stay at NRT.

I doubt that HA will go for a daytime slot, as the midnight departure time is just right for HNL flights. Maybe they would try KOA again, though.
I think there are a total of 10 daytime slot pairs pairs being made available for HND-U.S. flights. 5 for Japanese carriers. 5 for U.S. carriers. Currently, there are 8 HND-U.S. routes being flown. 2 each by NH and JL; and 1 each by UA/AA/DL/HA. I would assume that those with the actual route authorities would have first crack at the daytime slots. And that any new route authority between HND and the U.S. would have to open up a new round of negotiations.
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Old Jan 22, 16, 3:58 am
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Originally Posted by Fanjet View Post
I think there are a total of 10 daytime slot pairs pairs being made available for HND-U.S. flights. 5 for Japanese carriers. 5 for U.S. carriers. Currently, there are 8 HND-U.S. routes being flown. 2 each by NH and JL; and 1 each by UA/AA/DL/HA. I would assume that those with the actual route authorities would have first crack at the daytime slots. And that any new route authority between HND and the U.S. would have to open up a new round of negotiations.
U.S.-Japan is Open Skies. Everybody has route authority between any U.S. city and any Japanese city, though Hanesa requires slot approval.
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Old Jan 22, 16, 9:15 am
  #93  
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Originally Posted by Fanjet View Post
...Moreover, I wonder if they'll keep LAX-NRT.
Nope.
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Old Jan 22, 16, 9:26 am
  #94  
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Originally Posted by JonNYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanjet
...Moreover, I wonder if they'll keep LAX-NRT.

Nope.
Since AA would as minimum need to maintain a code share on NRT-LAX there could be some discussions with JAL on who gets to maintain the Narita route. JL may also be interested in moving Los Angeles to a Haneda departure.
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Old Jan 22, 16, 9:50 pm
  #95  
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CAPA published a good explanation of Delta's ridiculous demands that have held up negotiations for the new daytime HND frequencies:

Delta Air Lines' our-way-or-no-way attitude risks subverting US & Japan interests on Haneda flights

CAPA > Aviation Analysis > Delta Air Lines' our-way-or-no-way attitude risks subverting US & Japan interests on Haneda flights
21-Jan-2016

<snip>

In these examples Delta has emerged stronger and for the better, but where Delta cannot win, or its competitors stand to gain more, Delta can turn aggressive. This is now on display with the latest round of talks between the US and Japan over the first daytime slots for US airlines at Tokyo Haneda Airport. Delta rejects the few slots being offered as ending in a piecemeal result; Delta wants to move its entire Narita operation to Haneda, which at present numbers would require 14 slot pairs, a number so large it cannot even form a negotiating point. Unless Delta becomes reasonable, or is quietened, it is possible that no airlines may benefit.

Any expansion of Haneda slots would benefit Delta's competitors far more than itself, after Delta recently lost an attempt to grow its local business by purchasing Japan's Skymark. Although a business cannot be blamed for lobbying to bring itself benefits, Delta states its individual needs as a policy that will benefit all. There is an argument for the US government to step up its rejection of Delta's protectionism.
http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...flights-262177

My assumption is that the DOT will open a frequency selection proceeding once the negotiations are complete. The competing carriers won't be awarded "slots" by the DOT; instead, the DOT will award frequencies and the winners will then have to apply for and negotiate for specific daytime HND slots, exactly like AA did last year (for nighttime slots) after it was awarded the Delta SEA frequency.
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Old Jan 23, 16, 1:58 am
  #96  
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Originally Posted by FWAAA View Post
CAPA published a good explanation of Delta's ridiculous demands that have held up negotiations for the new daytime HND frequencies:
It's beyond rediculous. More so because their own LAX-HND flight would perform better with a daytime slot. It's all because it benefits AA and UA more than it could ever for them. HND is more congested than NRT. So unless some miracle happens, TPAC flights will still need to utilize NRT. However, unlike DL, AA and UA can offer a lot of onward connections from both airports.
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Old Jan 23, 16, 8:30 pm
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well, maybe not eventually, I can see most the flights moving to HND if they open 40k more flights per year internationally.

If DL wants to poison the well and have no US airline get them, can't the Japanese government just give them all to the Japanese airlines? I'm sure ANA/JAL/Jetstar wouldn't mind moving over some of their narita routes to HND or starting new ones.

http://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Econ...rt-capacity-50
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Old Jan 24, 16, 1:26 am
  #98  
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Originally Posted by bbmatt View Post
well, maybe not eventually, I can see most the flights moving to HND if they open 40k more flights per year internationally.

If DL wants to poison the well and have no US airline get them, can't the Japanese government just give them all to the Japanese airlines? I'm sure ANA/JAL/Jetstar wouldn't mind moving over some of their narita routes to HND or starting new ones.
Why should no U.S. carrier be allowed to get them? Even DL is not being denied the right to attain a daytime slot. It's just that DL has 5th Freedom rights beyond Japan, but no JV agreement with a Japanese carrier. So DL would not just need slots at HND for their TPAC service, they would also need slots for their intra-Asia service as well. For AA and UA, it doesn't really matter, as NH and JL offer intra-Asia flights from both HND and NRT.
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Old Jan 24, 16, 3:07 am
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Originally Posted by Fanjet View Post
Why should no U.S. carrier be allowed to get them? Even DL is not being denied the right to attain a daytime slot. It's just that DL has 5th Freedom rights beyond Japan, but no JV agreement with a Japanese carrier. So DL would not just need slots at HND for their TPAC service, they would also need slots for their intra-Asia service as well. For AA and UA, it doesn't really matter, as NH and JL offer intra-Asia flights from both HND and NRT.
Well, DL could always give up their 5th freedom rights if they don't like using NRT.
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Old Jan 24, 16, 10:09 am
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Originally Posted by Fanjet View Post
Why should no U.S. carrier be allowed to get them? Even DL is not being denied the right to attain a daytime slot. It's just that DL has 5th Freedom rights beyond Japan, but no JV agreement with a Japanese carrier. So DL would not just need slots at HND for their TPAC service, they would also need slots for their intra-Asia service as well. For AA and UA, it doesn't really matter, as NH and JL offer intra-Asia flights from both HND and NRT.
But DL has Skyteam partners flying to GMP, ICN, TSA, SHA, PVG, CAN, CGK, and HAN.

But of course they would rather just whine and complain about how giving out HND daytime slots will just ruin Delta Air Lines .
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Old Jan 24, 16, 11:40 am
  #101  
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Originally Posted by bbmatt View Post
well, maybe not eventually, I can see most the flights moving to HND if they open 40k more flights per year internationally.

If DL wants to poison the well and have no US airline get them, can't the Japanese government just give them all to the Japanese airlines? I'm sure ANA/JAL/Jetstar wouldn't mind moving over some of their narita routes to HND or starting new ones.
The Japanese government can't just simply "give them all" to Japanese carriers, as we're talking about a bilateral agreement, and the USA is going to demand equal treatment for its airlines. A Japanese airline can't takeoff from HND during the daytime bound for the USA unless the USA has agreed to it, and without half of the daytime HND frequencies for USA carriers, our government is unlikely to permit it.
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Old Jan 24, 16, 3:42 pm
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Originally Posted by FWAAA View Post
The Japanese government can't just simply "give them all" to Japanese carriers, as we're talking about a bilateral agreement, and the USA is going to demand equal treatment for its airlines. A Japanese airline can't takeoff from HND during the daytime bound for the USA unless the USA has agreed to it, and without half of the daytime HND frequencies for USA carriers, our government is unlikely to permit it.
Oh, I meant to non-US destinations. If delta successfully lobbies DOT to reject the deal wholesale, wont they have to/want to give the 10 slots to someone else?

I know the dragonair's hkg route is a horrible 1 am redeye from HND. I think I remember seeing a bunch of other destinations in asia/europe leaving at ungodly hours past midnight. Even AC/JL/ANA could move some/all canadian destinations to HND, if the US/Japan cant reach a deal. That in itself could easily take up the 10 slots already.
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Old Jan 24, 16, 4:41 pm
  #103  
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Originally Posted by Himeno View Post
Well, DL could always give up their 5th freedom rights if they don't like using NRT.
Sure. One of the main reasons Delta walked down the aisle with Northwest was because of their NRT operations.

DL wants the status quo because keeping it that way doesn't necessarily benefit them more. It's just that changing it benefits AA and UA a whole lot more. No one is forcing DL to operate out of HND instead of NRT. No one is forcing DL to change their evening flight into HND to a daytime flight. However, they will never be able to transfer their entire NRT operation over to HND because HND is more congested than NRT.
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Old Jan 24, 16, 4:55 pm
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The Nikkei is reporting that the total number of HND-US slot pairs will go up to 12. 10 will be daytime slot pairs while the number of midnight slot pairs will go down to 2. To be split evenly between JP and US carriers. Net increase of two flights on each side.

Japanese link: http://www.nikkei.com/article/DGXLZO96490430V20C16A1NN1000/?n_cid=kobetsu
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Old Jan 24, 16, 5:16 pm
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Originally Posted by joejones View Post
The Nikkei is reporting that the total number of HND-US slot pairs will go up to 12. 10 will be daytime slot pairs while the number of midnight slot pairs will go down to 2. To be split evenly between JP and US carriers. Net increase of two flights on each side.
I'm not understanding the math. Currently there are 8 HND-U.S. flights. Four on NH/JL. Four on UA/AA/DL/HA. If 10 daytime slot pairs are opened up while 2 nighttime ones are reduced. Doesn't that make a net increase of 8 slot pairs total, not 4 (going from 8 to 16)? Or are NH/JL currently utilizing some daytime slot pairs?
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