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Originally Posted by joejones
(Post 26060314)
The slot numbers are not quite decided, from what I understand. There were supposedly nine daytime slot pairs left over following the last international slot allocation, and most if not all of these were to be eventually used for US flights. It's possible that they are pushing for a 5:4 split so that DL gets 3 slots, JL and NH each get 2 and AA and UA each get 1. Thus there would be "parity" between DL and its two transpac JV competitors, each having four routes (including their existing night flights). Of course the JVs would have the massive advantage of feed beyond Tokyo, which DL does not have at the moment. Most likely, each faction will move its most competitive business routes (NYC, LAX, SFO, maybe ORD) to HND, while "fortress" routes like DFW stay at NRT.
I doubt that HA will go for a daytime slot, as the midnight departure time is just right for HNL flights. Maybe they would try KOA again, though. |
Originally Posted by Fanjet
(Post 26060332)
I think there are a total of 10 daytime slot pairs pairs being made available for HND-U.S. flights. 5 for Japanese carriers. 5 for U.S. carriers. Currently, there are 8 HND-U.S. routes being flown. 2 each by NH and JL; and 1 each by UA/AA/DL/HA. I would assume that those with the actual route authorities would have first crack at the daytime slots. And that any new route authority between HND and the U.S. would have to open up a new round of negotiations.
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Originally Posted by Fanjet
(Post 26060209)
...Moreover, I wonder if they'll keep LAX-NRT.
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Originally Posted by JonNYC
(Post 26061856)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanjet ...Moreover, I wonder if they'll keep LAX-NRT. Nope. |
CAPA published a good explanation of Delta's ridiculous demands that have held up negotiations for the new daytime HND frequencies:
Delta Air Lines' our-way-or-no-way attitude risks subverting US & Japan interests on Haneda flights CAPA > Aviation Analysis > Delta Air Lines' our-way-or-no-way attitude risks subverting US & Japan interests on Haneda flights 21-Jan-2016 <snip> In these examples Delta has emerged stronger and for the better, but where Delta cannot win, or its competitors stand to gain more, Delta can turn aggressive. This is now on display with the latest round of talks between the US and Japan over the first daytime slots for US airlines at Tokyo Haneda Airport. Delta rejects the few slots being offered as ending in a piecemeal result; Delta wants to move its entire Narita operation to Haneda, which at present numbers would require 14 slot pairs, a number so large it cannot even form a negotiating point. Unless Delta becomes reasonable, or is quietened, it is possible that no airlines may benefit. Any expansion of Haneda slots would benefit Delta's competitors far more than itself, after Delta recently lost an attempt to grow its local business by purchasing Japan's Skymark. Although a business cannot be blamed for lobbying to bring itself benefits, Delta states its individual needs as a policy that will benefit all. There is an argument for the US government to step up its rejection of Delta's protectionism. My assumption is that the DOT will open a frequency selection proceeding once the negotiations are complete. The competing carriers won't be awarded "slots" by the DOT; instead, the DOT will award frequencies and the winners will then have to apply for and negotiate for specific daytime HND slots, exactly like AA did last year (for nighttime slots) after it was awarded the Delta SEA frequency. |
Originally Posted by FWAAA
(Post 26065577)
CAPA published a good explanation of Delta's ridiculous demands that have held up negotiations for the new daytime HND frequencies:
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well, maybe not eventually, I can see most the flights moving to HND if they open 40k more flights per year internationally.
If DL wants to poison the well and have no US airline get them, can't the Japanese government just give them all to the Japanese airlines? I'm sure ANA/JAL/Jetstar wouldn't mind moving over some of their narita routes to HND or starting new ones. http://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Econ...rt-capacity-50 |
Originally Posted by bbmatt
(Post 26070022)
well, maybe not eventually, I can see most the flights moving to HND if they open 40k more flights per year internationally.
If DL wants to poison the well and have no US airline get them, can't the Japanese government just give them all to the Japanese airlines? I'm sure ANA/JAL/Jetstar wouldn't mind moving over some of their narita routes to HND or starting new ones. |
Originally Posted by Fanjet
(Post 26070634)
Why should no U.S. carrier be allowed to get them? Even DL is not being denied the right to attain a daytime slot. It's just that DL has 5th Freedom rights beyond Japan, but no JV agreement with a Japanese carrier. So DL would not just need slots at HND for their TPAC service, they would also need slots for their intra-Asia service as well. For AA and UA, it doesn't really matter, as NH and JL offer intra-Asia flights from both HND and NRT.
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Originally Posted by Fanjet
(Post 26070634)
Why should no U.S. carrier be allowed to get them? Even DL is not being denied the right to attain a daytime slot. It's just that DL has 5th Freedom rights beyond Japan, but no JV agreement with a Japanese carrier. So DL would not just need slots at HND for their TPAC service, they would also need slots for their intra-Asia service as well. For AA and UA, it doesn't really matter, as NH and JL offer intra-Asia flights from both HND and NRT.
But of course they would rather just whine and complain about how giving out HND daytime slots will just ruin Delta Air Lines :rolleyes:. |
Originally Posted by bbmatt
(Post 26070022)
well, maybe not eventually, I can see most the flights moving to HND if they open 40k more flights per year internationally.
If DL wants to poison the well and have no US airline get them, can't the Japanese government just give them all to the Japanese airlines? I'm sure ANA/JAL/Jetstar wouldn't mind moving over some of their narita routes to HND or starting new ones. |
Originally Posted by FWAAA
(Post 26072551)
The Japanese government can't just simply "give them all" to Japanese carriers, as we're talking about a bilateral agreement, and the USA is going to demand equal treatment for its airlines. A Japanese airline can't takeoff from HND during the daytime bound for the USA unless the USA has agreed to it, and without half of the daytime HND frequencies for USA carriers, our government is unlikely to permit it. :)
I know the dragonair's hkg route is a horrible 1 am redeye from HND. I think I remember seeing a bunch of other destinations in asia/europe leaving at ungodly hours past midnight. Even AC/JL/ANA could move some/all canadian destinations to HND, if the US/Japan cant reach a deal. That in itself could easily take up the 10 slots already. |
Originally Posted by Himeno
(Post 26070869)
Well, DL could always give up their 5th freedom rights if they don't like using NRT.
DL wants the status quo because keeping it that way doesn't necessarily benefit them more. It's just that changing it benefits AA and UA a whole lot more. No one is forcing DL to operate out of HND instead of NRT. No one is forcing DL to change their evening flight into HND to a daytime flight. However, they will never be able to transfer their entire NRT operation over to HND because HND is more congested than NRT. |
The Nikkei is reporting that the total number of HND-US slot pairs will go up to 12. 10 will be daytime slot pairs while the number of midnight slot pairs will go down to 2. To be split evenly between JP and US carriers. Net increase of two flights on each side.
Japanese link: http://www.nikkei.com/article/DGXLZO96490430V20C16A1NN1000/?n_cid=kobetsu |
Originally Posted by joejones
(Post 26074106)
The Nikkei is reporting that the total number of HND-US slot pairs will go up to 12. 10 will be daytime slot pairs while the number of midnight slot pairs will go down to 2. To be split evenly between JP and US carriers. Net increase of two flights on each side.
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