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AA Daily LAX-HND Service Feb 2016 w/ 787-8, applies DFW-HND

AA Daily LAX-HND Service Feb 2016 w/ 787-8, applies DFW-HND

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Old Jun 23, 16, 2:50 pm   -   Wikipost
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AA Begin Daily 787-8 LAX-HND Service 11 Feb 2016, DFW-HND on application

FORT WORTH, Texas, Nov. 4, 2015 /PRNewswire/ -- American Airlines will offer customers daily, year-round, nonstop service to Tokyo's Haneda Airport (HND) from its trans-Pacific gateway at Los Angeles International Airport (LAX) beginning Feb. 11, 2016. Customers can book travel on the new route starting Sunday, Nov. 8. American recently secured takeoff and landing time slots at Haneda Airport from the Japanese aviation authorities, which will allow the commencement of the flight.

The new service will operate on the following daily schedule (all times local):

LAX-HND
AA27
Departs LAX at 6 p.m.
Arrives at HND at 11 p.m. the following day

HND-LAX
AA26
Departs HND at 1:30 a.m.
Arrives at LAX at 6:20 p.m. the previous day

Link
Link to Dallas Morning News article on DFW-HND 23 Jun 2016 (comparing DFW vs. MSP for Haneda service)

Link to Dallas a Morning News Aviation Blog article on DFW-HND application, 4 Apr 2016

Please see this archived thread for posts relating to AA statement of intent and delays.

Previously (as posted by Exec_Plat), wandering_fred and ashill:

DOT Docket is DOT-OST-2010-0018
AA's application to fly LAX-HND (and motion to transfer DL's authority to fly SEA-LAX) is document DOT-OST-2010-0018-0384

On June 14, 2015, the DOT ruled that Delta would retain the HND slot for use on SEA-HND with dormancy conditions that require Delta to operate the flight every day of the year.

On June 17, 2015, Delta notified the DOT in a letter that it would "determined that it is not commercially feasible to operate the slots allocated to Delta for Seattle-Haneda service on a consistent daily basis year-round". The last Delta SEA-HND flight will operate on September 30, 2015. Delta will return the slots to the DOT on October 1, 2015, at which point the slots will automatically revert to American.

American service on LAX-HND could begin (err rather could have begun) as early as October 1, 2015.

While DOT has granted rights to AA, the actual time slots in which AA can arrive and depart HND are subject to negotiation with HND and other carriers.

- It is not clear that DL had slots every day of the year, and in fact DL may have been required to surrender the slots on August 15, 2015.
- AA needs to secure daily slots for HND, however the annual winter 2015 (W15) slot conference was on June 23, 2015, only a few days after DL notified DOT they would surrender the route.
- It is unknown when AA will acquire new time slots. Purportedly the IATA slot conference for S15 will be 10-12 November. Going by the published calendar Oct 8 begins this activity: https://www.iata.org/events/Document...activities.pdf
-There may be some motion with daytime slots (Aviationweek):
The U.S. Transportation Department (DOT) recently briefed U.S. carriers on the Japanese proposal, several people familiar with the matter told Aviation Daily. As it is currently understood, the proposal would shift some of the slots available to U.S. carriers to daytime hours. It may also include one additional slot pair, which would likely not be for a daily flight
- Per the published guidelines, the SAL Deadline is October 29, 2015, at which time the airport shall have made their initial decision on all slots to be allocated for the coming season. [One assumes horsetrading then begins.]
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Old Nov 4, 15, 9:06 pm
  #46  
 
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Originally Posted by brabb12 View Post
Probably still the 777-200ER.
We'll see how long this lasts. Can't imagine how this would be sustainable even with the JV with JAL.
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Old Nov 4, 15, 9:17 pm
  #47  
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Originally Posted by kop84 View Post
LAX does have a much higher OD to Japan than SEA...however right now only NH and DL run LAX/HND. Now a 3rd widebody will be on the route and is going to tank everyone's yields.
Perhaps AA's flight will kill DL's yields and NH's yields. Sucks to be them. Good for consumers, though.

LAX has almost five times the Tokyo O&D as SEA, yet SEA had three flights to TYO and LAX had eight (nine with the new AA flight). AA argued to the DOT that LAX was thus underserved, as there were only 2.2 seats per O&D passenger, while at SEA, there were about 3.1 seats per O&D passenger.

Now, there will be two SEA flights to NRT and nine flights to TYO from LAX, bringing capacity more in line with O&D demand.

Originally Posted by kop84 View Post
And I do think a better time slot and DL could have made the SEA/HND work. It's not unimaginable to think a better time slot would allow for good connecting flow from the network DL built in SEA.
We'll have to agree to disagree.

Without any online connections at HND (unlike UA and AA, both of which have immunized joint venture partners), a low-O&D route like SEA-HND just isn't going to work, no matter what time of day it operates. Total average daily SEA/TYO O&D for 2014 was about 129 PDEW, compared to 593 PDEW at LAX.

With three TYO flights at SEA, each flight had just 43 O&D PDEW, on average. At LAX, with seven flights (including AA's new flight in Feb), each flight will have 66 O&D PDEW. About 50% more O&D passengers per flight, on average, at LAX. I'm not convinced that everyone's yields will suffer. Fact is, there are hundreds of thousands of TYO O&D passengers from all over the USA that AA can connect to its new LAX flight that DL could not connect at SEA.

Lastly, DL's SEA flight competed with its LAX-HND flight. Seattle is a seasonal city, while Los Angeles is a year-round destination. DL wanted to fly a 763 just six months of the year, because it lacked sufficient O&D.

DL's primary objective wasn't to fly SEA-HND. Delta's primary objective was to play keep-away with one of the four USA-HND frequencies granted to USA carriers so that it could under-serve LAX-HND and keep its yields up. DL really doesn't want to see a new AA 787 competing against its old 763, as DL management probably knows what the competitive outcome is likely to be - AA is going to win. Or at least AA is prepared to spend what it takes to outlast DL on the route.

Originally Posted by kop84 View Post
Also that extra 40 minutes difference between arriving at 1020 vs 1100 is a very big deal if you're trying to catch the train.
Certainly true, but AA isn't all that worked up about people whose employers won't spring for the expensive taxi late at night. If your employer is willing to spend $3,000 flying you to Tokyo in business class, you won't have any trouble getting approval for the cab.

Originally Posted by cdgbear View Post
I am quite surprised that AA is operating both LAX-NRT and LAX-HND from February. I really don't think there is that much continuous demand on the market throughout the year.
LAX-TYO features almost five times the O&D as SEA, and as shown above, even with AA's new flight, there will still be more O&D per flight at LAX than at SEA.

Originally Posted by joejones View Post
NH and DL both operate LAX-NRT in addition to LAX-HND. From a business traveler's perspective, the combination is great because you can choose between the daytime NRT flight and the nighttime HND flight. Much more scheduling flexibility that way.

LA to Tokyo is a massive, massive market, especially if you throw in feed to other US and Asian destinations.
Agreed, although the AA LAX-NRT flight could be scrapped and the joint venture (AA+JAL) would still serve both HND and NRT from LAX with the daily JAL flight.

If AA keeps flying its own metal LAX-NRT alongside the LAX-HND flight, it's a pretty clear signal that AA intends to push either UA or DL off the LAX-TYO market - probably DL.
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Old Nov 4, 15, 9:25 pm
  #48  
 
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Originally Posted by FWAAA View Post
In addition to GRU mentioned above, LAX-PVG is now a 787-8, and management told employees recently that LAX would become one of the largest (if not the primary) AA 787 bases in the network as more flights to Asia are begun.

I have to believe that LAX-NRT is a perfect route for a 787, as AA has never made money on that route. The 787 might even open up the possibility of LAX-CDG plus it would make more sense for AA to fly LAX-MAD than IB, perhaps with a 787. And throw in a MIA turn or two if necessary to keep them busy.
LAX-GRU starts Dreamliner service tomorrow. LAX-NRT will be the only international 772 route out of LAX. Quite frankly, I do not see this lasting much longer with the major widebody refleeting as the 772s are seen increasingly on TATL routes, replacing the 767s and Dreamliners replacing 772s in the Pacific.

Five years from now, with the exception of 77W flights on the premium heavy routes, I expect to see all 789/A350 on intercontinental flights out of LAX. While many on this board are sceptical of AA making LAX as their viable Pacific hub due to foreign competition, these new aircraft coming along are perfect for starting up these routes due to their massive improvements with fuel efficiency and seating configuration compared to AA's existing 772s.
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Old Nov 4, 15, 9:41 pm
  #49  
 
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Originally Posted by FWAAA View Post
If AA keeps flying its own metal LAX-NRT alongside the LAX-HND flight, it's a pretty clear signal that AA intends to push either UA or DL off the LAX-TYO market - probably DL.
This. UA is happy where its at on LAX-NRT. The 777 they previously operated did not have the best economics and the switch to the 788 worked out quite well. Ditto for their LAX-PVG. Both are now 789 flights, as its the most appropriate aircraft for UA at LAX.

I suspect the same will be with AA. The 788 is inline with the 767 in capacity and initial move to Trans-Pacs is motivated by the desire to get the 772s off these money losers and get the Asia flights profitable. In the long run, the 789/A350 will end up predominating AA's Pacific flying.

DL on the other hand, well, they have pretty much done everything to annoy AA. There is little doubt that DL operating a LAX-PVG routing this year, sometime before they envisioned flying the route, was motivated by a sense to get back at AA. DL's yields on LAX-HND are going to trash next year. (Does not help they are doing mediocre at best based on load factors.) I would not be surprised to see DL downgrade LAX-NRT to a 767 to help out LAX-HND. However, I believe DL is not going to give up their sole HND flight for the fantastical purpose of trying to angle moving their NRT operation to HND. Its all about tactical maneuvering for the long term.
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Old Nov 4, 15, 10:07 pm
  #50  
 
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Originally Posted by FWAAA View Post
Agreed, although the AA LAX-NRT flight could be scrapped and the joint venture (AA+JAL) would still serve both HND and NRT from LAX with the daily JAL flight.

If AA keeps flying its own metal LAX-NRT alongside the LAX-HND flight, it's a pretty clear signal that AA intends to push either UA or DL off the LAX-TYO market - probably DL.
Honestly, the JL+AA JV needs every ounce of capacity that it can get. Just try planning a business trip between Japan and the US, and see what options you get. Unless you are in BOS or SAN, NH+UA offer so many more options that it's often hard to choose JL+AA even when you want to...
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Old Nov 4, 15, 11:05 pm
  #51  
 
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Connection to HKG

On the upside, this schedule works well with KA 396/397 to/from Hong Kong.

KA 397 HND-HKG: 0100 - 0525
KA 396 HKG-HND: 1815 - 2255

Unfortunately it's operated by a 320 but still another option to HKG.
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Old Nov 4, 15, 11:43 pm
  #52  
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Originally Posted by taxicabnumber View Post
PVG-LAX arrives early afternoon (2-3PM ish), while LAX-PVG leaves ~9-10AM. I suppose they could retime the flights to make a rotation with PVG-DFW work (PVG-ORD is still 772), but they've been seemingly rotating PVG-LAX-GRU-LAX-PVG, while the LAX-NRT goes South-America-MIA-LAX-NRT and vv. (Although admittedly that was while both GRU/PVG were 772s, not sure what happened this past month when one was 788 while the other was still 772 before switching over).
Actually, they can do this rotation:
LAX-PVG-LAX-HND-LAX-GRU-LAX. And then start it over again.
And it only requires 4 787s to do 3 daily RTs.
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Old Nov 5, 15, 12:10 am
  #53  
 
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Originally Posted by Fanjet View Post
Actually, they can do this rotation:
LAX-PVG-LAX-HND-LAX-GRU-LAX. And then start it over again.
And it only requires 4 787s to do 3 daily RTs.
They could, but HND-LAX-GRU will be somewhat tight at LAX (especially if AA retains the 0130 departure slot for NS2016 schedules).
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Old Nov 5, 15, 1:43 am
  #54  
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Originally Posted by nov11 View Post
They could, but HND-LAX-GRU will be somewhat tight at LAX (especially if AA retains the 0130 departure slot for NS2016 schedules).
I'm not sure what the conditions are for the arrival slot at GRU; but that aircraft sits on the ground at GRU for about 10 hours before returning to LAX. So if it's possible to delay the LAX-GRU departure by an hour, that gives the aircraft around 2.5 hours on the ground at LAX after arriving from HND.
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Old Nov 5, 15, 4:30 am
  #55  
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ugh... the link (http://hub.aa.com/en/nr/american-air...-february-2016) died. The link is also the first non-news result if you google this news.

I would think that AA want people to see the big news.
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Old Nov 5, 15, 7:29 am
  #56  
 
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American Begins Daily LAX-HND Service 11 Feb 2016 w/ 787-8 (after delays)

not sure why people are not a fan of the timings. most need to remember the current US-haneda restrictions that only allow flights at odd hours. Narita flights continue to exist for connections, as these flyers don't care how far they are from downtown Tokyo.

TSA, GMP, SHA from HND is a tough sell given the directs to TPE, ICN, PVG. this HND flight is for Tokyo O&D and that can fill a 787-8. Other flight times require a long sit in HND which is a waste for an expensive and fuel efficient plane.

Timings work for O&D, the late night departure from Tokyo helps adjust to the new time zone and the evening departure from LAX is a nice change from the late morning narita flights.
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Old Nov 5, 15, 8:09 am
  #57  
 
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Originally Posted by Fanjet View Post
Actually, they can do this rotation:
LAX-PVG-LAX-HND-LAX-GRU-LAX. And then start it over again.
And it only requires 4 787s to do 3 daily RTs.
Definitely doable, however the departure for LAX-GRU would have to be moved about a half hour later at least to avoid delays. But this should not be that problematic.
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Old Nov 5, 15, 5:10 pm
  #58  
 
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The 23:00 arrival time at HND sucks.

If it were like ANA which departs after midnight and arrives early like 05:00, then there would be a ton of domestic Japan and Asia connections to be made on JAL and CX. Would go well for military service members flying to OKA and GMP too.

Hopefully times would be changed going forward.

Last edited by kebosabi; Nov 5, 15 at 5:15 pm
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Old Nov 5, 15, 5:30 pm
  #59  
 
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Originally Posted by ericcheung View Post
not sure why people are not a fan of the timings. most need to remember the current US-haneda restrictions that only allow flights at odd hours. Narita flights continue to exist for connections, as these flyers don't care how far they are from downtown Tokyo.

TSA, GMP, SHA from HND is a tough sell given the directs to TPE, ICN, PVG. this HND flight is for Tokyo O&D and that can fill a 787-8. Other flight times require a long sit in HND which is a waste for an expensive and fuel efficient plane.

Timings work for O&D, the late night departure from Tokyo helps adjust to the new time zone and the evening departure from LAX is a nice change from the late morning narita flights.
No one else wants to admit it, so I will.

I don't like the overnight departures from Haneda because they eliminate the possibility to take advantage of the 23h59m award layover without going to NRT. Most flights from the rest of Asia arrive HND before 10PM. The US flights all leave after 10PM, so you are forced to depart that night. Again, arriving HND but departing NRT solves this problem, but that has it's own hassles.

The two exceptions to this (for departures to North America) are the *A departures to YYZ and YVR.

FWIW, solving this wouldn't really change AA's revenue picture, since I'm talking entirely about the desires of award passengers, so I don't expect them to work too hard to change it. It is, however, the only reason I am even slightly displeased with HND. All around a better experience than NRT, otherwise.
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Old Nov 5, 15, 6:42 pm
  #60  
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The main reason there are no day time slots to the US from Haneda is the political maneuvers particularly from Delta. They "demand" enough slots to move their whole NRT operation to HND. Which would basically be all available slots.

Though JL also has an interest in stalling, as they are restricted in the expansion until 2018 due to the government bailout. So if daytime slots became available now the main part on the Japan side would probably go to NH.

Europe routes started with the same restricted slot times, but now have a fair amount of daytime departures from HND.
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