Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Airlines and Mileage Programs > American Airlines | AAdvantage
Reload this Page >

AA Daily LAX-HND Service Feb 2016 w/ 787-8, applies DFW-HND

AA Daily LAX-HND Service Feb 2016 w/ 787-8, applies DFW-HND

    Hide Wikipost
Old Jun 23, 16, 2:50 pm   -   Wikipost
Please read: This is a community-maintained wiki post containing the most important information from this thread. You may edit the Wiki once you have been on FT for 90 days and have made 90 posts.
 
Last edit by: JDiver
Wiki Link
AA Begin Daily 787-8 LAX-HND Service 11 Feb 2016, DFW-HND on application

FORT WORTH, Texas, Nov. 4, 2015 /PRNewswire/ -- American Airlines will offer customers daily, year-round, nonstop service to Tokyo's Haneda Airport (HND) from its trans-Pacific gateway at Los Angeles International Airport (LAX) beginning Feb. 11, 2016. Customers can book travel on the new route starting Sunday, Nov. 8. American recently secured takeoff and landing time slots at Haneda Airport from the Japanese aviation authorities, which will allow the commencement of the flight.

The new service will operate on the following daily schedule (all times local):

LAX-HND
AA27
Departs LAX at 6 p.m.
Arrives at HND at 11 p.m. the following day

HND-LAX
AA26
Departs HND at 1:30 a.m.
Arrives at LAX at 6:20 p.m. the previous day

Link
Link to Dallas Morning News article on DFW-HND 23 Jun 2016 (comparing DFW vs. MSP for Haneda service)

Link to Dallas a Morning News Aviation Blog article on DFW-HND application, 4 Apr 2016

Please see this archived thread for posts relating to AA statement of intent and delays.

Previously (as posted by Exec_Plat), wandering_fred and ashill:

DOT Docket is DOT-OST-2010-0018
AA's application to fly LAX-HND (and motion to transfer DL's authority to fly SEA-LAX) is document DOT-OST-2010-0018-0384

On June 14, 2015, the DOT ruled that Delta would retain the HND slot for use on SEA-HND with dormancy conditions that require Delta to operate the flight every day of the year.

On June 17, 2015, Delta notified the DOT in a letter that it would "determined that it is not commercially feasible to operate the slots allocated to Delta for Seattle-Haneda service on a consistent daily basis year-round". The last Delta SEA-HND flight will operate on September 30, 2015. Delta will return the slots to the DOT on October 1, 2015, at which point the slots will automatically revert to American.

American service on LAX-HND could begin (err rather could have begun) as early as October 1, 2015.

While DOT has granted rights to AA, the actual time slots in which AA can arrive and depart HND are subject to negotiation with HND and other carriers.

- It is not clear that DL had slots every day of the year, and in fact DL may have been required to surrender the slots on August 15, 2015.
- AA needs to secure daily slots for HND, however the annual winter 2015 (W15) slot conference was on June 23, 2015, only a few days after DL notified DOT they would surrender the route.
- It is unknown when AA will acquire new time slots. Purportedly the IATA slot conference for S15 will be 10-12 November. Going by the published calendar Oct 8 begins this activity: https://www.iata.org/events/Document...activities.pdf
-There may be some motion with daytime slots (Aviationweek):
The U.S. Transportation Department (DOT) recently briefed U.S. carriers on the Japanese proposal, several people familiar with the matter told Aviation Daily. As it is currently understood, the proposal would shift some of the slots available to U.S. carriers to daytime hours. It may also include one additional slot pair, which would likely not be for a daily flight
- Per the published guidelines, the SAL Deadline is October 29, 2015, at which time the airport shall have made their initial decision on all slots to be allocated for the coming season. [One assumes horsetrading then begins.]
Print Wikipost

Old Mar 30, 16, 10:33 pm
  #181  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Alexandria, Longboat Key
Programs: AAdvantage
Posts: 1,914
Originally Posted by brabb12 View Post
The loads were overbooked in coach for yesterday. oversold by about 10 seats.

Its doing much better than the NRT to LAX.
As JAL is only receiving two daytime HND slots to the US, its very likely they'll be keeping HND-HNL/SFO. ANA is receiving four and will start two new cities from HND, one is undoubtedly JFK. Thus JAL will be left with LAX-NRT. Once this whole HND business is resolved, there is no need for AA to continue losing cash on LAX-NRT. I think there's a real chance AA will seriously consider upgauging a daytime LAX-HND to a 77W while cancelling a redundant LAX-NRT.
Longboater is offline  
Old Apr 21, 16, 3:23 pm
  #182  
Moderator: Travel Safety/Security, Travel Tools, California, Los Angeles; FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: VNY | BUR | LAX
Programs: AAdvantage | MileagePlus
Posts: 12,536
The Dallas Morning News:
American Airlines applies for D/FW to Tokyo Haneda service

<snip>

American filed an application with the Department of Transportation to begin service to Haneda from D/FW Airport and from Los Angeles International Airport, where it recently launched overnight service to Haneda.

“The current nighttime-only rules limit a lot of the connectivity of the current Los Angeles to Haneda flight. More importantly it doesn’t allow us to connect Haneda to Dallas/Fort Worth because the arrival times are in the middle of the night and you’re leaving at a bad time from Japan,” said Howard Kass, American’s vice president for regulatory affairs. “By shifting it to daytime, we’ll be able to unlock the full power of the American hub at D/FW to offer connections to passengers to dozens and dozens of cities.”

<snip>
TWA884 is offline  
Old Apr 21, 16, 3:25 pm
  #183  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: LAX
Programs: AA EXP & Lifetime Plat, TK Elite+, SPG Plat, Hyatt Globlalist
Posts: 2,435
Odd that they filed 787 for LAX-HND and 772 for DFW-HND. I'd have thought they'd filed for 772 for LAX-HND given that there's a large O&D between the two cities (and DL filed 772 for LAX-HND too).

This is quite shocking - even with the current night time slots, from Star-Telegram:

Currently, American operates daily service between Los Angeles and Tokyo Haneda with flights arriving in Tokyo at 11 p.m. and departing at 1:30 a.m. for Los Angeles. The airline said the flights, which started in February, have been extremely successful with a load factor of 91.5 percent.
Proposed schedule per AA's DOT application:

Winter:
AA27 LAX 1115 - 1615+1 HND 787 D
AA26 HND 1855 - 1145 LAX 787 D

AA53 DFW 1055 - 1530+1 HND 772 D
AA52 HND 1855 - 1535 DFW 772 D

Summer:
AA27 LAX 1140 - 1515+1 HND 787 D
AA26 HND 1755 - 1220 LAX 787 D

AA53 DFW 1105 - 1415+1 HND 772 D
AA52 HND 1830 - 1615 DFW 772 D

Last edited by nov11; Apr 21, 16 at 4:07 pm
nov11 is offline  
Old Apr 21, 16, 4:42 pm
  #184  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 69,160
Load factor is easy to build with low fares and I'm betting aircraft rotation/utilization works better with the 787.

My prediction is that AA keeps LAX but doesn't get DFW. DL gets bumped out of LAX over to ATL and UA gets EWR as the extra slot. HA keeps HNL and gets its HNL/KOA night slot since it seems to be the only carrier willing to talk about a night slot still.
n.b. The link above is to my blog or to one which I am a regular contributor. FT rules require that I disclose that in the post.
sbm12 is offline  
Old Apr 21, 16, 5:06 pm
  #185  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: SFO
Programs: A3 *G; HH Diamond;
Posts: 1,533
Originally Posted by sbm12 View Post
Load factor is easy to build with low fares and I'm betting aircraft rotation/utilization works better with the 787.

My prediction is that AA keeps LAX but doesn't get DFW. DL gets bumped out of LAX over to ATL and UA gets EWR as the extra slot. HA keeps HNL and gets its HNL/KOA night slot since it seems to be the only carrier willing to talk about a night slot still.
n.b. The link above is to my blog or to one which I am a regular contributor. FT rules require that I disclose that in the post.
I mis-read. Never mind.

Last edited by geclub1; Apr 21, 16 at 5:56 pm
geclub1 is offline  
Old Apr 21, 16, 5:13 pm
  #186  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Usually in SAN or Central Europe.
Programs: AA:EXP. Accor/Radisson:Silver; HH:Gold; ICH:Plt Amb.
Posts: 21,853
Originally Posted by sbm12 View Post

My prediction is that AA keeps LAX but doesn't get DFW. DL gets bumped out of LAX over to ATL and UA gets EWR as the extra slot. HA keeps HNL and gets its HNL/KOA night slot since it seems to be the only carrier willing to talk about a night slot still.
I think what works in AA's favor over UA for the extra slot pair is that UA's JV/ATI partner is receiving 4 daytime slot pairs at HND, whereas AA's is only receiving two. Which would then give JL/AA four daytime slot pairs versus NH/UA with five. As opposed to three versus six.
Fanjet is offline  
Old Apr 21, 16, 8:08 pm
  #187  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: YYF/YLW
Programs: AA, DL, AS MVP, VA
Posts: 5,077
I'm surprised that AA (and DL, for that matter) didn't request JFK and that neither AA nor UA requested ORD. AA said that they pulled out of JFK because it wasn't viable without daytime slots, but now they don't think it's viable even with daytime slots? Is AA relying on JL, and is JL planning to use one of their two slots on JFK?

Given that, I have to assume that UA's EWR bid is a shoe-in as the only NYC bid, as is UA's SFO and one of the two LAX bids (DL/AA). That leaves two daytime slots left with requests for a second LAX (loser of the first LAX bid), MSP/ATL (DL), DFW (AA), and HNL (HA). It seems to me like one of the two eastern DL bids (they listed MSP as higher priority than ATL, presumably due to geography) and DFW would be the strongest, leaving HA with a nighttime slot to split amongst HNL and KOA as they please.

In the past, the DOT has awarded LAX-HND to DL over AA because DL said they'd use a 747 while AA said they'd use a smaller 777. This time, DL promises a 777 while AA proposes a 787. Will be interesting to see what the DOT thinks of the capacity argument this time around.

</amateur prognostication>
ashill is offline  
Old May 6, 16, 8:45 am
  #188  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: LAX; AA EXP, MM; HH Gold
Posts: 31,790
The airlines filed their answers on Thursday; here is AA's answer:

https://www.regulations.gov/contentS...ontentType=pdf

Here is the docket in case you want to read all the other answers:

https://www.regulations.gov/#!docket...-OST-2016-0048

HA asked for an immediate determination as it was the only applicant for the nighttime frequency; HA is likely to get it after a brief comment period.
FWAAA is offline  
Old May 9, 16, 9:46 pm
  #189  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: WAS via RDU, FLL, PHL and TYO
Programs: UA Silver (working on Gold), Hilton Dia, Marriott Plat, Radisson Gold, Hertz 5*
Posts: 3,865
As discussed in other threads (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/all-n...d-ord-nyc.html / http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...l#post26596972 / http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...eculation.html) it looks like NH is going to have slots for JFK, ORD, LAX and HNL while JL will only have slots for SFO and HNL (the Japanese government continues to punish JL for being bailed out by the opposition).

From the US perspective, this seems to justify giving AA the DFW route and denying the EWR route to UA. I'm not sure how the DOT would justify letting UA (including its JV partners) have two nonstops from NYC, plus connecting options through ORD and YYZ, while competitors have no good offerings from anywhere in the Northeast to HND.
joejones is offline  
Old May 10, 16, 1:28 am
  #190  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Usually in SAN or Central Europe.
Programs: AA:EXP. Accor/Radisson:Silver; HH:Gold; ICH:Plt Amb.
Posts: 21,853
Originally Posted by joejones View Post
As discussed in other threads (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/all-n...d-ord-nyc.html / http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...l#post26596972 / http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...eculation.html) it looks like NH is going to have slots for JFK, ORD, LAX and HNL while JL will only have slots for SFO and HNL (the Japanese government continues to punish JL for being bailed out by the opposition).
I am really shocked that JL would waste one of their two slot pairs on HNL. ORD or JFK would produce much higher yields IMO.
Fanjet is offline  
Old May 10, 16, 2:51 am
  #191  
Marriott Contributor Badge
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: YUL
Programs: Occasional RTW club
Posts: 6,299
Originally Posted by Fanjet View Post
I am really shocked that JL would waste one of their two slot pairs on HNL. ORD or JFK would produce much higher yields IMO.
You're kidding, right?

HNL is essentially THE destination for Japanese tourists. Certain travel agencies tend to pull almost 50% of their annual revenue from HNL tours alone. I will bet you anything if JL could own the entire Japan-HNL route network as a monopoly, they could probably just drop all their other routes and fly hourly 388s there, and come out profitable generations into the future. Consider that just between NRT/HND and HNL there are 4 daily flights on JL alone (never mind NH/DL/UA/HA/KE/etc, or KIX and other gateways).
Pseudo Nim is offline  
Old May 10, 16, 8:04 pm
  #192  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: WAS via RDU, FLL, PHL and TYO
Programs: UA Silver (working on Gold), Hilton Dia, Marriott Plat, Radisson Gold, Hertz 5*
Posts: 3,865
It seems (from what I am reading in Japanese press) that JL doesn't have a lot of choice in the matter -- they are "locked in" to continue the routes that they are already offering in the nighttime slots.
joejones is offline  
Old May 11, 16, 2:23 am
  #193  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Usually in SAN or Central Europe.
Programs: AA:EXP. Accor/Radisson:Silver; HH:Gold; ICH:Plt Amb.
Posts: 21,853
Originally Posted by Pseudo Nim View Post
You're kidding, right?

HNL is essentially THE destination for Japanese tourists. Certain travel agencies tend to pull almost 50% of their annual revenue from HNL tours alone. I will bet you anything if JL could own the entire Japan-HNL route network as a monopoly...
How much business class demand is there on HNL-HND? That's where the higher yields come from. There will still be a lot more flights between HNL and NRT than HND. How much more revenue does a HNL-HND flight bring in than a HNL-NRT one?
Fanjet is offline  
Old May 11, 16, 3:13 am
  #194  
Marriott Contributor Badge
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: YUL
Programs: Occasional RTW club
Posts: 6,299
Originally Posted by Fanjet View Post
How much business class demand is there on HNL-HND? That's where the higher yields come from. There will still be a lot more flights between HNL and NRT than HND. How much more revenue does a HNL-HND flight bring in than a HNL-NRT one?
Actually, surprisingly enough once again, but it's always full. I've been on both NRT-HNL and HND-HNL a few times, and a) JL *never* releases award space on them (that I've seen) and b) in all cases, the flight was C0 Y0, or at best, one or two seats were available - and I went during various seasons. I'm not saying the flight is *always* packed to the gills (checking EF, there's a full array of C9 to C0 over the next week), but more often than not, the planes appear to be quite full. Paritcularly with the events in Europe, which had a significant negative impact on Japan->European tourist traffic, I'm quite certain loads on HNL are at their highest point now.

For Japanese domestic travellers, HND is a much better airport than NRT. NH, HA and JL each have a single flight out of it, so I suspect JL figures that having two flights would provide a competitive advantage over the other two. For international connections, it's true that NRT is a better option, but I would think that them flying NRT-HNL is more due to a lack of slots at HND than strategic planning focussed on capturing international connecting traffic via NRT to carry passengers to HNL, rather than HND-originating traffic (since Japan-departing passengers would tend to be more likely to prefer the HND flights due to distance).
Pseudo Nim is offline  
Old May 11, 16, 3:50 am
  #195  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: WAS via RDU, FLL, PHL and TYO
Programs: UA Silver (working on Gold), Hilton Dia, Marriott Plat, Radisson Gold, Hertz 5*
Posts: 3,865
Just discussed this on another thread. Yes, they routinely sell out business class to Hawaii. However, the fares are much lower than business class fares to the mainland US. A lot of the demand comes through tour operators who buy the seats in bulk and sell them to honeymooners etc. There is a huge gap even in the published fares. From a quick Google search, JL business class r/t from HND to HNL later this month (7.5 hour flight eastbound) prices at $2,439. To SFO on the same dates (9.5 hour flight eastbound), the fare is $4,835.
joejones is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search Engine: