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ARCHIVE: Boeing 767-300 / 763 "CIP" with Lie Flat Business (2014 CIP)

ARCHIVE: Boeing 767-300 / 763 "CIP" with Lie Flat Business (2014 CIP)

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Old Jul 17, 18, 3:25 am   -   Wikipost
Please read: This is a community-maintained wiki post containing the most important information from this thread. You may edit the Wiki once you have been on FT for 90 days and have made 90 posts.
 
Last edit by: JDiver
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The current thread for discussing the 767-323ER Thompson Vantage Business Seats is https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/amer...est-seats.html.

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"CIP" Cabin Improvement Program Full Lie Flat Thompson Vantage Seat and All-Aisle Access. 16 of 24 with WiFi, Business with tablets for IFE.

See American Airlines Business Class Seat video in first post
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Due to thread and interest growth, please see 763 / 767 CIP New (2014) Business Seat and Map (master thread). BUSINESS SEAT and BUSINESS CABIN posts have moved to that thread.

NOTE: All currently flying 763s are refurbished.

100% of the active fleet have been converted (as of 30OCT17) (* = wifi available):
  • N342AN*, N343AN*, N344AN*, N346AN*, N347AN*, N348AN*, N349AN*, N350AN*, N379AA, N381AN*, N384AA*, N385AM, N388AA, N389AA, N390AA, N391AA, N392AN, N393AN, N394AN, N395AN, N396AN, N397AN*, N398AN, and N399AN*.

The following 34 aircraft have been retired (as of 30OCT17):
  • N345AN, N351AA, N352AA, N353AA, N354AA, N355AA, N357AA, N358AA, N39356, N359AA, N360AA, N361AA, N362AA, N363AA, N39364, N39365, N366AA, N39367, N368AA, N369AA, N370AA, N371AA, N372AA, N373AA, N374AA, N7375A, N376AN, N377AN, N378AN, N382AN, N383AN, N386AA, N387AM, N380AN (with N373AA being the final NGBC aircraft retired to Roswell on 30OCT17)

Program details:
  • ~26 (46%) of AA's fleet of 57 763 / 767-323ERs have been retained and upgraded with a Cabin Improvement Program - 28 new horizontal lie-flat Thompson Vantage business seats, 14 MCE seats (row 11 gets removed as the business cabin is enlarged), and 163 coach / economy (including 14 exit row) seats. Other upgrades include international satellite Wi-Fi (refit started in 2016), 110V AC power outlets in the business cabin (MCE and coach will retain 15V DC cigarette-lighter style power), new overhead monitors and audio systems, and a refurbishment of lavatories and main cabin seats. No personal in-seat video system was installed - the premium cabin retain the Samsung Galaxy tablets (docked to seatbacks) on international flights, and the main cabin, as well as the premium cabin on domestic flights, will stay with shared overhead screens.

  • These aircraft were refurbished for one reason: the AA/BA/IB/AY transatlantic joint business agreement requires that AA have lie-flat seats for transatlantic routes.

  • Link to post with artist's rendition of new J cabin. Link to post with new seat maps as they appear in AA.com

  • Link to airchive article including pictures, and Link to mycrewlife blog post with more renderings showing the business cabin.

  • Link to FT Trip Report with images

  • Link to AA's widebody CIP announcement. For 777 upgrades, see thread 777-200ER / 772 No First; New Business Announced 2014 (767 stuff moved).

J-cabin seat map:

Code:
   A  D  G  J
 2 0_ 0_0_ _0 2
 3 _0 _0_0 0_ 3
 4 0_ 0_0_ _0 4
 5 _0 _0_0 0_ 5
 6 0_ 0_0_ _0 6
 7 _0 _0_0 0_ 7
 8 0_ 0_0_ _0 8
 A  D  G  J
 
 Legend: 0 = seat; _ = table
Link to SeatGuru 763 seat chart


Note: the seats in C behind seats with smaller consoles (inside center) have smaller foot cubbies; those with large feet or shoes will feel cramped. Those over six feet will feel cramped if they lie supine in the fully flattened seat; sleeping slanted or side sleeping with bent legs is possible.

In Business they offer a 110 VAC multi-socket in the e-pad front tray area, and another, as well as USB and audio mini jack at shoulder height over and at the rear of the console. Seat controls are touch controls, and can involuntarily be operated by resting your forearm on the console.

The tray table is released with a button; it pivots out and folds. Table height may impede those who are portly or have long legs. Overhead bins, IFE monitors, lavs etc. have not been upgraded.

JDiver's mini-report here.

Contributors: sensei, SDQBound(former B7e7US), Longboater, Econometrics[/COLOR]
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Old Mar 8, 14, 10:12 am
  #151  
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Originally Posted by JonNYC View Post
at the end of the day, the AA 763 was never gonna' get any other seat besides this one, nor should it have. This is *the* seat for this aircraft.
Which makes me wonder why it was so hush-hush before the announcement? Seriously...

Originally Posted by JonNYC View Post
So which lie-flat, all-aisle access J-seat that fits on a 763 would you have preferred, pray tell?
I don't mind these seats in principle, but conceivably one could prefer the herringbone seats that AC uses which I mentioned upthread and which you can see here. In fact with the mood lighting the cabin actually looks pretty sexy. Or as sexy as a 763 interior can look with those awkward boxy 70s-style overhead bins.
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Old Mar 8, 14, 10:28 am
  #152  
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Originally Posted by Microwave View Post
Which makes me wonder why it was so hush-hush before the announcement? Seriously...



I don't mind these seats in principle, but conceivably one could prefer the herringbone seats that AC uses which I mentioned upthread and which you can see here. In fact with the mood lighting the cabin actually looks pretty sexy. Or as sexy as a 763 interior can look with those awkward boxy 70s-style overhead bins.
I agree, nice seats. I forgot who else uses them-- maybe DL on A330 refit or something? It escapes me. But, I believe the issue was the layout just didn't give enough density for this project. I have to re-ask though if I'm thinking of the right seat.
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Old Mar 8, 14, 10:30 am
  #153  
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Originally Posted by Microwave View Post
Which makes me wonder why it was so hush-hush before the announcement? Seriously...
Yeah, true! I think you can tell from my post that I was completely bewildered as to why I wasn't allowed to share what the seat was-- as everyone knew. But, ya gotta respect your sources when they say "this is not public" etc-- often seems quite random to me.
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Old Mar 8, 14, 10:40 am
  #154  
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Originally Posted by JonNYC View Post
I agree, nice seats. I forgot who else uses them-- maybe DL on A330 refit or something? It escapes me. But, I believe the issue was the layout just didn't give enough density for this project. I have to re-ask though if I'm thinking of the right seat.
Definitely lower density. If I recall correctly these are the same (or very similar) seats that DL use on the 744s, where they fit 14 in the upper deck as against BA who get 20, while DL fit as many of these business seats forward of 1L/R as BA fit first class seats. Definitely not dense, and certainly not "lux" enough to justify the lack of density (IMO).
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Old Mar 8, 14, 10:46 am
  #155  
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Originally Posted by JonNYC View Post
I agree, nice seats. I forgot who else uses them-- maybe DL on A330 refit or something? It escapes me. But, I believe the issue was the layout just didn't give enough density for this project. I have to re-ask though if I'm thinking of the right seat.
AC's herringbone arrangement takes up too much space and is horrid for looking out the window. The airline is not using it on its 787s. But the 767 has always been a problem in premium cabins since the fuselage is actually rather narrow. Most international carriers went for a variation on 1-2-2/2-1-2/2-2-1 in business or even first. I've flown these seats on LX and had no issue with the single seat which had lots of working space and I encountered no leg room problem. AC is using these on its high density 777s and IIRC this is also what AirBerlin is using on its reburb'd fleet.
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Old Mar 8, 14, 11:41 am
  #156  
 
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Originally Posted by Shareholder View Post
But the 767 has always been a problem in premium cabins since the fuselage is actually rather narrow.
Exactly. Look no further than BA. BA's J seat design, with half the seats facing forwards, half backwards, with narrower footwells than seat rests, allows for an extra seat across in J (vs. competitors) on every type except the 763. The 777 and 747, originally designed to be 2x3x2, are 2x4x2 and the 787 is 2x3x2, instead of the 2x2x2 initially intended. The 763? 2x2x2, just like everyone else.

Of course this excludes the newer herringbone layouts which often have 1x2x1 configurations.
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Old Mar 8, 14, 11:53 am
  #157  
 
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Originally Posted by Shareholder View Post
I've flown these seats on LX and had no issue with the single seat which had lots of working space and I encountered no leg room problem.
Myself and several others I know don't agree. I can't fit my feet in the well when flat.
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Old Mar 8, 14, 12:19 pm
  #158  
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Originally Posted by gegarrenton View Post
Myself and several others I know don't agree. I can't fit my feet in the well when flat.
If this seat has a most noteable drawback, I'd say that's it
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Old Mar 8, 14, 12:38 pm
  #159  
 
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Originally Posted by djibouti View Post
What's the big issue? I'm reading through it and folks are saying "privacy" but, especially for a pair, what was so bad?
My problems with the DL 767 seat are:

1) the "box" your feet go into when seat goes flat to become a bed is very confining; I'm not particularly tall but the foot box felt cramped to me, most of all in the height dimension. Seemed impossible to keep my feet at a 90 angle to the bed.

2) the seat when fully reclined into a bed did not actually feel flat; it felt "lumpy" and not parallel to the floor for its entire length

3) crappy low-grade leather covering the seat

I would suggest trying to choose window seats that are along the sidewall as opposed to along the aisle.
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Old Mar 8, 14, 12:45 pm
  #160  
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This will most definitely be a set-up where which seat you get matters tremendously-- very much in contrast to any existing AA seat (where personal preference matters more than anything)

The seats in this set-up vary -dramatically- in desirability and even personal space per seat-- which, believe it or not, can vary by as much as 30% between seats.
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Old Mar 8, 14, 12:55 pm
  #161  
 
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Originally Posted by JonNYC View Post
This will most definitely be a set-up where which seat you get matters tremendously-- very much in contrast to any existing AA seat (where personal preference matters more than anything)

The seats in this set-up vary -dramatically- in desirability and even personal space per seat-- which, believe it or not, can vary by as much as 30% between seats.
Yikes!
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Old Mar 8, 14, 2:45 pm
  #162  
 
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Originally Posted by hillrider View Post
The seats are built for IFE; the fact that AA chooses not to install it (if true, it's a terrible, terrible choice) doesn't mean that it cannot be inserted at a later time at a far cheaper cost than buying a completely new seat.
Well, for reasons already pointed out by JonNYC it may not be that terrible a choice; as I understand it the aircraft must be hardwired to have AVOD at every seat and the 763 isn't. So that would mean pumping even more $$ into those planes for reasons other than fulfilling a contractual obligation to JV partners.

And, if I'm right, and the 763s have their lives extended a bit to fly the HI, Central American and northernmost South American routes (where there isn't the same kind of premium competition as to Europe) then it won't matter. Conversely, if AA decides to try the seat in the 787 (though I'm not sure what other issues besides IFE JonNYC was referring to) it sounds from your post like the seats could potentially be retrofitted for IFE.
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Old Mar 8, 14, 2:47 pm
  #163  
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Originally Posted by Upgraded! View Post
Well, for reasons already pointed out by JonNYC it may not be that terrible a choice; as I understand it the aircraft must be hardwired to have AVOD at every seat and the 763 isn't.
This is exactly correct.
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Old Mar 8, 14, 2:49 pm
  #164  
 
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Originally Posted by JonNYC View Post
This will most definitely be a set-up where which seat you get matters tremendously-- very much in contrast to any existing AA seat (where personal preference matters more than anything)

The seats in this set-up vary -dramatically- in desirability and even personal space per seat-- which, believe it or not, can vary by as much as 30% between seats.
Will this be true of the single seats as well as the doubles? With the doubles I can see from the pics exactly what you're talking about; one seat has an armrest/table area all its own which is twice the size of the one it shares with the neighboring seat. On the other hand, only the seat with less armrest space will have the ability to exit to use the facilities without moving the seat upright. That matters in the middle of the night .
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Old Mar 8, 14, 2:58 pm
  #165  
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Originally Posted by Upgraded! View Post
Will this be true of the single seats as well as the doubles? With the doubles I can see from the pics exactly what you're talking about; one seat has an armrest/table area all its own which is twice the size of the one it shares with the neighboring seat. On the other hand, only the seat with less armrest space will have the ability to exit to use the facilities without moving the seat upright. That matters in the middle of the night .
Actually, can't say I have the slightest idea beyond what you've observed. I intend to find out at some point, but, for now, just know that the personal space varies measurably between seats-- how much that actually affects passenger comfort I don't actually know.

I think anyone can see that the window seat that has the seat up against the wall will be the most desirable seats overall-- maybe even regardless of if that seat has low/high/average amount of personal living space.
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