AA downgrade - compensation? What else? [merged]
Nov 4, 2018, 4:08 pm
#496
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: PHL / NYC / PSA-BLQ
Programs: AA PPRO, Marriott/Hilton Gold, AMX-Plat, Global Entry
Posts: 3,109
Well, to recapitulate, this was something that was showing on the return flight from Europe (MAD). The day we were flying out (from US) to MAD, I checked in with AA again (Platinum Pro desk) and got someone who seemed to be both understanding and forthright. Which is to say, after getting the standard non-reason reasons (schedule change [but there was no schedule change] and equipment swap [but it was the standard A330-200 that does this route]), I said something to the effect of, "Look, I've flown a fair amount. There's something about this that just doesn't look good. You're saying that we should just show up in MAD and she'll get a seat assigned. But what seat?" My wife and I were on separate PNRs, and my PE seat still looked good, so I was willing at this point to engage in a salvage operation: Lock in a decent MCE as the downgrade, take that for myself, give my PE seat to my wife. The AA Plat Pro CSR totally got what I was saying, and she was also good enough (and honest enough) to admit that there were no seats anywhere else in the plane to be had!
At this point I was getting a sinking feeling, since I didn't much like the idea of flying out that afternoon not knowing if my wife really had a seat back that day. So the CSR started checking around for what struck me as pretty disagreeable alternatives (return MAD-MIA/ORD-PHL). One of the reasons that we do short trips to EUR is to take advantage of the non-stops from PHL. Everything was looking pretty bleak. Nothing looked good out of other alternatives that would have worked for us (CDG) etc. ...
Now is the point of the story where they might be something of use to readers here. I say "might be" because I can't be sure whether there was any real cause-and-effect to all of this, but here it goes:
As I have been saying, this was a case where the AA CSR really seemed to understand everything I was saying -- details and implications -- and although I was expressing my disappointment with everything that was happening, we were speaking to each other in a friendly, work-together manner. So when I got to the point where I said, "Gosh, so what I am hearing here is that the chances she'll get on that flight in any seat are slim, and that there is no saying how long it might take to find another non-stop MAD-PHL in J?" Remember, for my wife, this is a short trip and not a business trip, and some things that you have to live with when they are happening in real-time appear worse when you can see them rolling at you days ahead. Thus I continued, "I guess I'm really not getting this from AA's standpoint, since this is an Award ticket [110,000 miles one way!] booked in advance, seat taken away, and the flight leaving from EU where EU261 applies for compensation?" The AA CSR put me on hold, talked to someone for awhile, came back, said that they don't really concern themselves with EU261, but....
Turns out they could re-book both of us the next day MAD-PHL in our seats (wife in J, me in PE). This would leave me scrambling to re-book hotels and, in particular, a CDG-MAD flight, but -- you know what? -- there are worse things in life than an unexpected extra day in Paris, and I was not looking forward to flying over to Europe not knowing whether or not she had a seat back. So I said, "Let's do it" and we did it. In the end, the flight we came back on was over-booked, too, and they had to downgrade at least one person (there was at least one FAM on the flight, and if you ask me how I know, well, ....), but we got our seats and all was well. Was the original flight really full or not? What had been the problem? I have no real clue. My sense is that I both benefit and don't benefit from being a long-term flyer. On the one hand, I (we) see things that other flyers don't see, and sometimes that allows us to scramble pro-actively. On the other hand, it may make me (us) worry more about stuff that would work out just fine if we had been oblivious all along.
At this point I was getting a sinking feeling, since I didn't much like the idea of flying out that afternoon not knowing if my wife really had a seat back that day. So the CSR started checking around for what struck me as pretty disagreeable alternatives (return MAD-MIA/ORD-PHL). One of the reasons that we do short trips to EUR is to take advantage of the non-stops from PHL. Everything was looking pretty bleak. Nothing looked good out of other alternatives that would have worked for us (CDG) etc. ...
Now is the point of the story where they might be something of use to readers here. I say "might be" because I can't be sure whether there was any real cause-and-effect to all of this, but here it goes:
As I have been saying, this was a case where the AA CSR really seemed to understand everything I was saying -- details and implications -- and although I was expressing my disappointment with everything that was happening, we were speaking to each other in a friendly, work-together manner. So when I got to the point where I said, "Gosh, so what I am hearing here is that the chances she'll get on that flight in any seat are slim, and that there is no saying how long it might take to find another non-stop MAD-PHL in J?" Remember, for my wife, this is a short trip and not a business trip, and some things that you have to live with when they are happening in real-time appear worse when you can see them rolling at you days ahead. Thus I continued, "I guess I'm really not getting this from AA's standpoint, since this is an Award ticket [110,000 miles one way!] booked in advance, seat taken away, and the flight leaving from EU where EU261 applies for compensation?" The AA CSR put me on hold, talked to someone for awhile, came back, said that they don't really concern themselves with EU261, but....
Turns out they could re-book both of us the next day MAD-PHL in our seats (wife in J, me in PE). This would leave me scrambling to re-book hotels and, in particular, a CDG-MAD flight, but -- you know what? -- there are worse things in life than an unexpected extra day in Paris, and I was not looking forward to flying over to Europe not knowing whether or not she had a seat back. So I said, "Let's do it" and we did it. In the end, the flight we came back on was over-booked, too, and they had to downgrade at least one person (there was at least one FAM on the flight, and if you ask me how I know, well, ....), but we got our seats and all was well. Was the original flight really full or not? What had been the problem? I have no real clue. My sense is that I both benefit and don't benefit from being a long-term flyer. On the one hand, I (we) see things that other flyers don't see, and sometimes that allows us to scramble pro-actively. On the other hand, it may make me (us) worry more about stuff that would work out just fine if we had been oblivious all along.
My wife and I just did the MAD-PHL flight 3 weeks ago (starting in BLQ). If you're PHL-based stateside (as it seems we both are), it's a nice way to hop the pond. While we're doing PHL-JFK-MXP in February, we already have PHL-MAD-BLQ booked for June (it's the back half of the MAD-PHL we just did - booked before AA announced the non-stop to BLQ which doesn't have PE).
I was particularly interested in the J & PE elements of what you were doing. We're typically booking J ex-USA and PE return (although we're generally starting our outbound in EUR as routing ex-EUR seems to price better than ex-USA).
Dec 10, 2018, 6:38 am
#497
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: NYNY
Programs: Marriott Ambassador & LT Titanium, UA Silver, AA PLT
Posts: 842
I was supposed to fly MIA-CLT-JFK in paid F yesterday, with a friend. I was rebooked MIA-ATL in Y, ATL-LGA in F. Of course, we did not get refunded any $$ due to downgrade. I requested upgrades for both of us on MIA-ATL (PPro myself, used 500 mile stickers for my friend), even though they weren't able to rebook us in F. As it turns out, the upgrade cleared for both of us. My questions are:
1. Can we get EQM/EQD credit for the original F booking?
2. Can I get my 500 mile stickers refunded?
1. Can we get EQM/EQD credit for the original F booking?
2. Can I get my 500 mile stickers refunded?
Dec 15, 2018, 6:03 am
#499
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Programs: AA Exp / Marriott Titanium / Hilton Gold / Hyatt Globalist / United Silver
Posts: 958
Scheduled to fly JFK-MAD-TLV in J next week (AA B767 in JFK-MAD, IB A330 in MAD-TLV)
They frantically called me offering $800 pp to fly 12AB on JFK-MAD segment. I took it - so hopefully I will save someone from the painful experience of invol downgrade
One funny thing - the agent said that she was calling the executive platinum members first since they will know what to do with the vouchers...
They frantically called me offering $800 pp to fly 12AB on JFK-MAD segment. I took it - so hopefully I will save someone from the painful experience of invol downgrade
One funny thing - the agent said that she was calling the executive platinum members first since they will know what to do with the vouchers...
Dec 16, 2018, 1:25 pm
#500
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: PHL
Programs: AA ExP, Marriott Amb, National EAE, Hilton Diamond, SPG Plat (RIP), US CP (RIP)
Posts: 2,379
Flying AUS-DFW, boarded and noticed one F seat blocked as inop. Pax arrived and was told to speak with GA. Near the end of boarding GA came on board and asked two upgraded pax to voluntarily downgrade to accommodate paid F pax. They were offered a $300 voucher and an aisle seat in coach. A woman negotiated up to also include a glass of wine 🍷 to which th GA happily agreed. I’m sure her husband was happy as it turned out he was in coach and the voucher would be deposited into his account 😁. I suspect he doesn’t regret offering his upgrade to her.
Dec 17, 2018, 8:48 am
#501
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: NYNY
Programs: Marriott Ambassador & LT Titanium, UA Silver, AA PLT
Posts: 842
Here's what their response was:
We are sorry to hear of the flight disruption. Weather certainly can have an impact on our travel plans.
We are happy to refund the (2) upgrades that were deducted for <COMPANION'S> upgrade MIA-ATL. However, because this was weather related, we are unable to also award the EQM activity you are requesting. I am sorry for any disappointment.
On a positive note, we have reviewed the mileage credit and determined that you earned slightly more miles by flying the route through ATL than you would have through CLT.
This is a strange circumstance since you ultimately flew first class on the downgraded segment. Albeit due to your status. I'm glad it worked out that way in the long run!
Have a great week!
Finally, let me say how much we appreciate your loyalty as an AAdvantage® Platinum Pro member. Thanks!
Last edited by newbiztraveler; Dec 17, 2018 at 8:58 am
Dec 17, 2018, 12:09 pm
#502
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: PHL
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Hilton Diamond, AA Gold, FB Gold, ITA Volare Executive
Posts: 3,294
Wow. Normally you can chalk up insensitivity to speed-reading of circumstances, automated replies ... but here someone took the time to assess the information and provide a jovial reply, before sticking the knife in and twisting it.
Dec 17, 2018, 12:19 pm
#503
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Washington,DC
Posts: 1,822
Scheduled to fly JFK-MAD-TLV in J next week (AA B767 in JFK-MAD, IB A330 in MAD-TLV)
They frantically called me offering $800 pp to fly 12AB on JFK-MAD segment. I took it - so hopefully I will save someone from the painful experience of invol downgrade
One funny thing - the agent said that she was calling the executive platinum members first since they will know what to do with the vouchers...
They frantically called me offering $800 pp to fly 12AB on JFK-MAD segment. I took it - so hopefully I will save someone from the painful experience of invol downgrade
One funny thing - the agent said that she was calling the executive platinum members first since they will know what to do with the vouchers...
AA sold two tickets at J fare for ~$6000 one way and gave you $800 - net gain to AA over $10,000
Why an earth would you take just $800 on an overnight?
Dec 17, 2018, 12:25 pm
#504
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 27,233
If it *is* important for your 2019 status, then CALL AAdvantage Customer Service so you can argue your case live. If they continue to refuse to award you the first class EQMs, then I would demand a proportional refund for the downgraded segment (as they reiterated in writing, you flew that segment in first class due to your status) - I'm calculating this as ~44% of the fare differential. If you have the original fare basis code and booking date someone can probably look up the fare differential on ExpertFlyer. Then file a small claims court case if they refuse. That will probably open up settlement discussions, where I'm sure someone with half a brain will be willing to give you the proper EQMs. Or alternatively, get someone to commit in writing to bump your status up if you fall less than 264 EQMs short. That's probably nearly impossible, as I think they generally would only consider waivers after Jan 1, and it would be risky to hope for that. At least now you have ~13 days to make backup plans!
Dec 17, 2018, 12:39 pm
#505
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: NYNY
Programs: Marriott Ambassador & LT Titanium, UA Silver, AA PLT
Posts: 842
First of all, I'm calculating the EQMs on your original MIA-CLT-JFK itinerary as (650 + 541)*2 = 2,382, based on GCMap distances. MIA-ATL-LGA in Y/F would earn 594 + 762*2 = 2,118. So you were shortchanged 264 EQMs. Will that impact your status for 2019? If not, I'd probably be inclined to drop it. RDMs/EQD's shouldn't be impacted because the ticket price didn't change.
If it *is* important for your 2019 status, then CALL AAdvantage Customer Service so you can argue your case live. If they continue to refuse to award you the first class EQMs, then I would demand a proportional refund for the downgraded segment (as they reiterated in writing, you flew that segment in first class due to your status) - I'm calculating this as ~44% of the fare differential. If you have the original fare basis code and booking date someone can probably look up the fare differential on ExpertFlyer. Then file a small claims court case if they refuse. That will probably open up settlement discussions, where I'm sure someone with half a brain will be willing to give you the proper EQMs. Or alternatively, get someone to commit in writing to bump your status up if you fall less than 264 EQMs short. That's probably nearly impossible, as I think they generally would only consider waivers after Jan 1, and it would be risky to hope for that. At least now you have ~13 days to make backup plans!
If it *is* important for your 2019 status, then CALL AAdvantage Customer Service so you can argue your case live. If they continue to refuse to award you the first class EQMs, then I would demand a proportional refund for the downgraded segment (as they reiterated in writing, you flew that segment in first class due to your status) - I'm calculating this as ~44% of the fare differential. If you have the original fare basis code and booking date someone can probably look up the fare differential on ExpertFlyer. Then file a small claims court case if they refuse. That will probably open up settlement discussions, where I'm sure someone with half a brain will be willing to give you the proper EQMs. Or alternatively, get someone to commit in writing to bump your status up if you fall less than 264 EQMs short. That's probably nearly impossible, as I think they generally would only consider waivers after Jan 1, and it would be risky to hope for that. At least now you have ~13 days to make backup plans!
It's not a huge issue, but I just can't fathom how it was decided that I purchased an F ticket, flew in F, but I should be denied F EQMs by some absurd contractual BS. It's boneheaded, it probably cost them more to read the email and write the response, than to credit the EQMs, and it doesn't really make me want to be loyal to AA on future premium fares. It leaves me wondering what would happen if it was a much longer route.
Dec 17, 2018, 2:17 pm
#506
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 27,233
My understanding from your posts on this was that you were rerouted from MIA-CLT-JFK in F/F to MIA-ATL-LGA in Y/F, but that the MIA-ATL legs were upgraded back up to F due to elite status. As such, I assumed that you earned 1x EQMs on MIA-ATL, and 2x EQMs on ATL-LGA. But as AA pointed out, your original itinerary was a shorter distance, so while original routing credit should give you 2x EQMs on both segments, it's 2x a smaller number. Specifically 264 EQMs less.
I get your point about the principle. I spent >30 minutes arguing with an agent with DL about ~1200 RDMs -- Delta takes its sweet time in processing qualification to a higher status level after you earn it, and doesn't (apparently) retroactively apply the higher bonus RDM %'s to flights taken after the qualifying flight but before the status posts. It's "boneheaded" of course, but ultimately not a huge deal (and this was on a 6k mile flight, but we're talking about a 40% vs. 60% bonus from Silver to Gold). In the end, they gave me what I guess was their standard "goodwill gesture" of 2500 RDMs.
I get your point about the principle. I spent >30 minutes arguing with an agent with DL about ~1200 RDMs -- Delta takes its sweet time in processing qualification to a higher status level after you earn it, and doesn't (apparently) retroactively apply the higher bonus RDM %'s to flights taken after the qualifying flight but before the status posts. It's "boneheaded" of course, but ultimately not a huge deal (and this was on a 6k mile flight, but we're talking about a 40% vs. 60% bonus from Silver to Gold). In the end, they gave me what I guess was their standard "goodwill gesture" of 2500 RDMs.
Dec 17, 2018, 2:52 pm
#507
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Live: IWI; Work: DCA/Everywhere; Play: LAS/SJU/MLE
Programs: AA EXP, DL PM, Hyatt Glob, Marriott Ambassador/LTP, Nat'l Exec Elite, LEYE Gold
Posts: 6,670
I'm not sure I'm reading your response correctly, but I was not even credited double EQM for first class MIA-ATL, due to the downgrade.
It's not a huge issue, but I just can't fathom how it was decided that I purchased an F ticket, flew in F, but I should be denied F EQMs by some absurd contractual BS. It's boneheaded, it probably cost them more to read the email and write the response, than to credit the EQMs, and it doesn't really make me want to be loyal to AA on future premium fares. It leaves me wondering what would happen if it was a much longer route.
It's not a huge issue, but I just can't fathom how it was decided that I purchased an F ticket, flew in F, but I should be denied F EQMs by some absurd contractual BS. It's boneheaded, it probably cost them more to read the email and write the response, than to credit the EQMs, and it doesn't really make me want to be loyal to AA on future premium fares. It leaves me wondering what would happen if it was a much longer route.
Dec 17, 2018, 7:47 pm
#508
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Global
Posts: 5,998
I'm not sure I'm reading your response correctly, but I was not even credited double EQM for first class MIA-ATL, due to the downgrade.
It's not a huge issue, but I just can't fathom how it was decided that I purchased an F ticket, flew in F, but I should be denied F EQMs by some absurd contractual BS. It's boneheaded, it probably cost them more to read the email and write the response, than to credit the EQMs, and it doesn't really make me want to be loyal to AA on future premium fares. It leaves me wondering what would happen if it was a much longer route.
It's not a huge issue, but I just can't fathom how it was decided that I purchased an F ticket, flew in F, but I should be denied F EQMs by some absurd contractual BS. It's boneheaded, it probably cost them more to read the email and write the response, than to credit the EQMs, and it doesn't really make me want to be loyal to AA on future premium fares. It leaves me wondering what would happen if it was a much longer route.
Is it the principle of the 264 EQM's or is there something else?
(I get the principle of the 264 EQM's but unless you needed them, why bother?)
I guess I am failing to understand why you are so upset about 264 EQM's.
Dec 18, 2018, 7:24 am
#509
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: NYNY
Programs: Marriott Ambassador & LT Titanium, UA Silver, AA PLT
Posts: 842
You flew in first the whole way. You were shorted 264 EQM's vs original route.
Is it the principle of the 264 EQM's or is there something else?
(I get the principle of the 264 EQM's but unless you needed them, why bother?)
I guess I am failing to understand why you are so upset about 264 EQM's.
Is it the principle of the 264 EQM's or is there something else?
(I get the principle of the 264 EQM's but unless you needed them, why bother?)
I guess I am failing to understand why you are so upset about 264 EQM's.
Originally Posted by newbiztraveler
It's not a huge issue
Dec 18, 2018, 9:01 am
#510
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Programs: AA Exp / Marriott Titanium / Hilton Gold / Hyatt Globalist / United Silver
Posts: 958