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Back-to-back or "nested" ticketing questions, discussion (consolidated)

Back-to-back or "nested" ticketing questions, discussion (consolidated)

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Old Nov 10, 18, 2:36 pm   -   Wikipost
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Back to Back or "Nested" Tickets - Discussion

Ticket validity: Compliance with terms and conditions of sale (link)

American specifically prohibits practices commonly known as:

  • Back-to-back ticketing: The combination of two or more roundtrip excursion fares end to end for the purpose of circumventing minimum stay requirements.
<snip>

Where a ticket is invalidated as the result of the passenger's non-compliance with any term or condition of sale, American has the right in its sole discretion to:
  1. Cancel any remaining portion of the passenger's itinerary
  2. Confiscate unused flight coupons
  3. Refuse to board the passenger or check the passenger's luggage
  4. Refuse to refund an otherwise refundable ticket
  5. Assess the passenger for the reasonable remaining value of the ticket, which shall be no less than the difference between the fare actually paid and the lowest fare applicable to the passenger's actual itinerary

Typically, these are tickets purchased to evade minimum stays such as seven days or Saturday night. E.g. Consultant John Doe flies AUS-SEA Monday, returns Thursday; he buys nested round trip excursion tickets using coupon 1 of ticket 1 outbound, coupon 1 of ticket 2 return, the coupons #2 the following week, etc. AA hates John Doe. AA wants Mr. Doe to stop it.

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Old Apr 6, 18, 4:43 pm
  #256  
 
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Originally Posted by Woodsmit View Post
Sorry, my fault. I should have been more clear.
  • Award Ticket: EZE - MIA lands at 5:09 AM EST Connecting to MIA - LGA 5:30 PM - 844 PM
  • Revenue Ticket: MIA - MCO 6:50 AM EST - 8:01 AM EST
So the flights won't be in the air at the same time but the revenue flight would happen during the layover in the award ticket. Thoughts?
You should be able to drop the final MIA-LGA segment regardless of status, for no charge.

See the wiki and the graphic in it at https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/amer...el-etc-46.html

Dropping segments: Awards made on AA or / and "All Partner" carriers will allow changes mentioned above without requiring redeposit fees. Instances of dropping an origin segment can be allowed, or a final segment - as long as doing so does not change the destination zone (or sub-zone, in the case of intra-North America awards); changing the mileage (miles required) of the award claimed or the number of awards claimed.
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Old Apr 6, 18, 9:11 pm
  #257  
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Originally Posted by Woodsmit View Post
Sorry, my fault. I should have been more clear.
  • Award Ticket: EZE - MIA lands at 5:09 AM EST Connecting to MIA - LGA 5:30 PM - 844 PM
  • Revenue Ticket: MIA - MCO 6:50 AM EST - 8:01 AM EST
So the flights won't be in the air at the same time but the revenue flight would happen during the layover in the award ticket. Thoughts?
I don't think there is a problem with the nesting (and as people have said you can always drop the last segment). I do think there is a problem with the connection time.

That seems like a very tight connection if you have any baggage. Because you will need to claim it, go through customs, and check in again. While the minimum I-to-D conenction time may be shorter than that, I'm pretty sure that applies to same ticket where you don't need to check in again.
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Old Oct 2, 18, 1:44 pm
  #258  
 
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Nested tickets between OW carriers

I知 looking at an IB ticket that would position me for a AA multi city trip. The AA flight would take me through my departure city after only 5 days (though I do have a Sat night stay) I知 not sure how to find the fare rules before buying. Does the fact that I知 using different carriers negate the nesting problem? Can I still use my AA ff number? Thanks for any assistance.

Last edited by goldmarch; Oct 2, 18 at 1:47 pm Reason: Error
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Old Oct 2, 18, 4:45 pm
  #259  
 
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Originally Posted by goldmarch View Post
I知 looking at an IB ticket that would position me for a AA multi city trip. The AA flight would take me through my departure city after only 5 days (though I do have a Sat night stay) I知 not sure how to find the fare rules before buying. Does the fact that I知 using different carriers negate the nesting problem? Can I still use my AA ff number? Thanks for any assistance.
So, you are flying IB from City A to City B. Then AA from City B to City C to City D then back to City A.

Is that right?

I don't see any problem with that.

Nesting usually means buying tickets A-B over a long stay then a short B-A stay within the long stay. The classic is the guy commuting to work, then flying home for the weekend. This circumvents minimum stay rules, and is against the T&Cs. If you are not constructing your ticket to circumvent minimum stay rules and are doing it for your own convenience, then I'd say it's OK.

I do invite correction.
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Old Oct 2, 18, 6:00 pm
  #260  
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Originally Posted by goldmarch View Post
I知 looking at an IB ticket that would position me for a AA multi city trip. The AA flight would take me through my departure city after only 5 days (though I do have a Sat night stay) I知 not sure how to find the fare rules before buying. Does the fact that I知 using different carriers negate the nesting problem? Can I still use my AA ff number? Thanks for any assistance.
Switching up carriers eliminates the conflict. Another test is to price tickets chronologically, if the fare jumps tremendously, then there may be an issue.
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Old Oct 2, 18, 6:01 pm
  #261  
 
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I probably should have explained further. I have a flight booked AAA-BBB(8 day layover)-CCC(4 day layover)-AAA, all on American. I am based in BBB. My original plan was to get to AAA on a refundable one way that I bought a while ago, and home on a one way award ticket. My plans have changed a bit, so now I am looking at a RT Iberia ticket that would get me to AAA about 5 days (with a Sat. night) before the start of the multi city and back home about 4 days after the last leg of the multi city. So the entire multi city ticket would be nested within the RT. It wasn't my intention to cheat anybody, but I also don't want to get into any trouble.
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Old Oct 2, 18, 6:04 pm
  #262  
 
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Originally Posted by goldmarch View Post
I’m looking at an IB ticket that would position me for a AA multi city trip. The AA flight would take me through my departure city after only 5 days (though I do have a Sat night stay) I’m not sure how to find the fare rules before buying. Does the fact that I’m using different carriers negate the nesting problem? Can I still use my AA ff number? Thanks for any assistance.

Originally Posted by QueenOfCoach View Post
So, you are flying IB from City A to City B. Then AA from City B to City C to City D then back to City A.

Is that right?
goldmarch's post isn't that clear, but because he said "through" his "departure city", I read it as: BBB-CCC (on IB), then CCC-DDD-BBB-EEE-CCC (on AA); i.e he would return to BBB (original departure city) before the end of his trip. Then later, CCC-BBB (on IB). If my interpretation is the case, and if there is a stopover in BBB on the AA ticket, it could be a violation of nested ticketing restriction.

goldmarch, can you give a bit more detail (even if you don't name actual cities, you could format as I've done above)?

Edit to add: We were typing at the same time. Based on your above post, I think it could be interpreted as a violation, especially if it saves a bunch of money.

Last edited by TheDudeAbides; Oct 2, 18 at 6:07 pm Reason: goldmarch posted while I was typing
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Old Oct 2, 18, 6:34 pm
  #263  
 
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Originally Posted by TheDudeAbides View Post
. Based on your above post, I think it could be interpreted as a violation, especially if it saves a bunch of money.
I'm not sure how much money it saves (but likely some) because the multi city is in J and the RT would be in Y, not to mention that all the prices have changed since I bought the multi city. My knowledge of pricing tools doesn't go much beyond Google Flights.

Based on the advice from RogerD408, it seems that using a different carrier (IB or BA would be my options) would solve the problem. Is it safe to use an AA frequent flyer number?
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Old Oct 2, 18, 9:18 pm
  #264  
 
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Originally Posted by goldmarch View Post
I'm not sure how much money it saves (but likely some) because the multi city is in J and the RT would be in Y, not to mention that all the prices have changed since I bought the multi city. My knowledge of pricing tools doesn't go much beyond Google Flights.

Based on the advice from RogerD408, it seems that using a different carrier (IB or BA would be my options) would solve the problem. Is it safe to use an AA frequent flyer number?
Whether you "save money" or not is completely irrelevant, nested tickets are not illegal and you're not going to get in any trouble or anything like that. Even if this itinerary were to be completely against the rules (and I still can't follow it with all the AAAs and BBBs) AA is going to do absolutely nothing if it is a one time occurance. Just book everything on AA and go on about your way.
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Old Oct 3, 18, 4:46 am
  #265  
 
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Originally Posted by QueenOfCoach View Post
Nesting usually means buying tickets A-B over a long stay then a short B-A stay within the long stay. The classic is the guy commuting to work, then flying home for the weekend. This circumvents minimum stay rules, and is against the T&Cs. <snip>

I do invite correction.
What you describe is back-to-back ticketing.

From AA CoC:

Combine 2 or more roundtrip excursion fares end-to-end to circumvent minimum stay requirements (back-to-back ticketing)
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Old Nov 10, 18, 7:44 pm
  #266  
 
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Overlapping Multiple PNRs Question

I am not sure if I am explaining this right or how to word it if there is even another thread on here but I have a question for you experts out there.

AA has some fares (and yes they are BE, I don't care just want cheap) that when I price them out, have to be at least 7 days long to get the really cheap fare. My intentions were to then book 2-3 trips but with different dates coming and going so for example:

I would book one trip outbound from US 2/1 return to US 2/18. Then I would book another trip outbound from US 2/15 and return to us 3/10. My last trip would then be booked in reverse Leaving Europe to US on 2/3 and leaving to US back to europe on 3/8.

If you are still with me, would AA allow this? So technically if you match up the dates, you are looking at 3 weekend trips but the trip dates are scattered in order for the really cheap fare pricing to show up, which I would assume based on my searches, requires 7 night stay. My question then becomes, would my flights get cancelled if I were to book this? Would I be able to actually do this? I have the option of booking one trip with Delta, one trip with United and one trip with AA but that would not really yield me anything to progress with my AA status next year so was hoping to do this all on oneworld carriers.

any thought would be appreciated.
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Old Nov 10, 18, 8:48 pm
  #267  
 
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That痴 called 澱ack-to-back ticketing and is a violation of AA痴 Contract of Carriage meaning they can cancel the tickets. Whether they will notice and cancel them I have no idea.
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Old Nov 10, 18, 8:57 pm
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Originally Posted by miadukes View Post
I am not sure if I am explaining this right or how to word it if there is even another thread on here but I have a question for you experts out there.

AA has some fares (and yes they are BE, I don't care just want cheap) that when I price them out, have to be at least 7 days long to get the really cheap fare. My intentions were to then book 2-3 trips but with different dates coming and going so for example:

I would book one trip outbound from US 2/1 return to US 2/18. Then I would book another trip outbound from US 2/15 and return to us 3/10. My last trip would then be booked in reverse Leaving Europe to US on 2/3 and leaving to US back to europe on 3/8.

If you are still with me, would AA allow this? So technically if you match up the dates, you are looking at 3 weekend trips but the trip dates are scattered in order for the really cheap fare pricing to show up, which I would assume based on my searches, requires 7 night stay. My question then becomes, would my flights get cancelled if I were to book this? Would I be able to actually do this? I have the option of booking one trip with Delta, one trip with United and one trip with AA but that would not really yield me anything to progress with my AA status next year so was hoping to do this all on oneworld carriers.

any thought would be appreciated.
Technically it's against the rules in using nested tickets to circumvent minimum stay requirements.

However, in practice and reality you will have no problem, especially just for a few tickets. AA is just happy to take your money for all 3 tickets, as you said otherwise you could book the other tickets with UA or DL. If you were flying this kind of routine for months on end then AA might speak up, but in this case it will be no problem at all.
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Old Nov 11, 18, 7:26 am
  #269  
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Originally Posted by miadukes View Post
I am not sure if I am explaining this right or how to word it if there is even another thread on here but I have a question for you experts out there.

AA has some fares (and yes they are BE, I don't care just want cheap) that when I price them out, have to be at least 7 days long to get the really cheap fare. My intentions were to then book 2-3 trips but with different dates coming and going so for example:

I would book one trip outbound from US 2/1 return to US 2/18. Then I would book another trip outbound from US 2/15 and return to us 3/10. My last trip would then be booked in reverse Leaving Europe to US on 2/3 and leaving to US back to europe on 3/8.

If you are still with me, would AA allow this? So technically if you match up the dates, you are looking at 3 weekend trips but the trip dates are scattered in order for the really cheap fare pricing to show up, which I would assume based on my searches, requires 7 night stay. My question then becomes, would my flights get cancelled if I were to book this? Would I be able to actually do this? I have the option of booking one trip with Delta, one trip with United and one trip with AA but that would not really yield me anything to progress with my AA status next year so was hoping to do this all on oneworld carriers.

any thought would be appreciated.
Yes, you might get away with it, but it is at the discretion of AA to enforce their rules or not, which this violates. Personally, I would consider the risks involved. There have been reports of chronic offenders having their tickets canceled on the return leaving the passenger away from home and the only choice was to book a walk-up fare to get home, or travel a different airline. Is this acceptable given your risk tolerance?
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Old Nov 11, 18, 9:58 am
  #270  
 
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Originally Posted by fordan View Post
That’s called “back-to-back” ticketing and is a violation of AA’s Contract of Carriage meaning they can cancel the tickets. Whether they will notice and cancel them I have no idea.
Originally Posted by JJeffrey View Post
Technically it's against the rules in using nested tickets to circumvent minimum stay requirements.

However, in practice and reality you will have no problem, especially just for a few tickets. AA is just happy to take your money for all 3 tickets, as you said otherwise you could book the other tickets with UA or DL. If you were flying this kind of routine for months on end then AA might speak up, but in this case it will be no problem at all.
Originally Posted by RogerD408 View Post
Yes, you might get away with it, but it is at the discretion of AA to enforce their rules or not, which this violates. Personally, I would consider the risks involved. There have been reports of chronic offenders having their tickets canceled on the return leaving the passenger away from home and the only choice was to book a walk-up fare to get home, or travel a different airline. Is this acceptable given your risk tolerance?
Thanks, I had to idea what it was called but figured if i posted here someone would know. Yes, since its Europe my tolerance is so so, i wanted to know the details before doing anything and no I probaby wouldn't now knowing what you guys said but I might do it i i can book on two different carries, that will not a be a problem right since presumably one carrier will not know about the other so they technically it shouldn't violate anything? I haven't quite worked out if there are that signifact savings this way as opposed to just paying maybe $100 ore for the outright tickets, I really have to do the math and see if it makes sense since it would require all sorts of keeping up with tickets. but thank you guys, i won't try to pull this off with just AA since like PP said, I do not want to have an issue down the line.

eta: i asked here because it seemed too good to be true and im glad i asked.
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