Last edit by: Prospero
Note update - 2016 June 10
EU clarification on EC261/2004
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/themes...16)3502_en.pdf
Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 11 February 2004 establishes common rules on compensation and assistance to passengers in the event of denied boarding and of cancellation or long delay of flights, and repealing Regulation (EEC) No 295/91.
AA email address for EC 261 claims: [email protected]
Link to article on Wikipedia: "The Flight Delay Compensation Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 is a regulation establishing common rules on compensation and assistance to passengers in the event of denied boarding, flight cancellations, or long delays of flights. It repealed Regulation (EEC) No 295/91, and went into effect on 18 February 2005. It sets out the entitlements of air passengers when a flight that they intend to travel on is delayed or cancelled, or when they are denied boarding to such a flight due to overbooking, or when the airline is unable to accommodate them in the class they had booked." It applies to Member States and includes French overseas territories.
NOTE: Heretofore, the ruling only applied to flights leaving Europe on all airlines, or flights from anywhere to Europe, on European airlines. Most recently (July 2019), a new European Court of Justice ruling commands that even flights which connect to non-EU airlines, but were booked as one ticket from the EU must be compensated. (link to article on godsavethepoints.com)
Link to EC 261/2004 text in several languages.
Link to language (English) Adobe Portable Document Format (PDF) of EC 261/2004
Link to description by Air Passenger Rights a "multilingual consumer website explaining the rights of air passengers in the European Union."
Link to contact details of EC 261/2004 enforcement bodies
Link to English language EC 261/2004 compliaint form PDF
Email for EC claims at AA.com: [email protected] (verified Aug 2016, can take 4 weeks for a reply)
Link to BAEC Forum lengthy EC261/2004 thread.
Link to thisismoney.co.uk article explaining EC261/2004.
Link to travel sort.com blog on recovering EC261/2004 compensation from American Airlines.
Previous posts from this thread have been archived to ARCHIVE: EC261 / EC 261/2004 complaints, compensation and AA (master thread)
“Despite all this, expect airlines to give you a hard time with your claim. File a claim on your own, but if you find yourself stonewalled or denied unfairly, enlisting a firm like AirHelp or Bott & Co can be huge, since they fight the case for you, in exchange for a 25% cut of the recovered cash. A 75% chunk of something is better than 100% of nothing.” (godsavethepoints.com)
Signed in members with 90 days / 90 posts can edit this Wikipost; wiki contents may be printed by using the (lower right wiki corner)
EU clarification on EC261/2004
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/themes...16)3502_en.pdf
Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 11 February 2004 establishes common rules on compensation and assistance to passengers in the event of denied boarding and of cancellation or long delay of flights, and repealing Regulation (EEC) No 295/91.
AA email address for EC 261 claims: [email protected]
Code:
The regulation applies to any passenger: - departing from an airport located in the territory of a Member State to which the Treaty applies;The protection accorded to passengers departing from or to an airport located in a Member State should be extended to those leaving an airport located in a third country for one situated in a Member State, when a Community carrier operates the flight and where a community carrier is defined as any carrier licensed to operate within that community.
Code:
- departing from an EU member state, or travelling to an EU member state - on an airline based in an EU member state if that person has: - a confirmed reservation on the flight, and - arrived in time for check-in as indicated on the ticket or communication from the airline airline, or, if no time is so indicated, no less than 45 minutes prior to the scheduled departure time of the flight or - have been transferred from the flight for which he/she held a reservation to some other flight unless - the passenger is travelling on a free or discounted ticket not available to the general public, other than a ticket obtained from a frequent flyer programme. It does not apply to helicopter flights, to any flight not operated by a fixed-wing aircraft, nor to flights from Gibraltar Airport.[1] (wikipedia)
NOTE: Heretofore, the ruling only applied to flights leaving Europe on all airlines, or flights from anywhere to Europe, on European airlines. Most recently (July 2019), a new European Court of Justice ruling commands that even flights which connect to non-EU airlines, but were booked as one ticket from the EU must be compensated. (link to article on godsavethepoints.com)
Link to EC 261/2004 text in several languages.
Link to language (English) Adobe Portable Document Format (PDF) of EC 261/2004
Link to description by Air Passenger Rights a "multilingual consumer website explaining the rights of air passengers in the European Union."
Link to contact details of EC 261/2004 enforcement bodies
Link to English language EC 261/2004 compliaint form PDF
Email for EC claims at AA.com: [email protected] (verified Aug 2016, can take 4 weeks for a reply)
Link to BAEC Forum lengthy EC261/2004 thread.
Link to thisismoney.co.uk article explaining EC261/2004.
Link to travel sort.com blog on recovering EC261/2004 compensation from American Airlines.
Previous posts from this thread have been archived to ARCHIVE: EC261 / EC 261/2004 complaints, compensation and AA (master thread)
“Despite all this, expect airlines to give you a hard time with your claim. File a claim on your own, but if you find yourself stonewalled or denied unfairly, enlisting a firm like AirHelp or Bott & Co can be huge, since they fight the case for you, in exchange for a 25% cut of the recovered cash. A 75% chunk of something is better than 100% of nothing.” (godsavethepoints.com)
Signed in members with 90 days / 90 posts can edit this Wikipost; wiki contents may be printed by using the (lower right wiki corner)
GUIDE: EC261 / EC 261/2004 “EU” complaints, compensation and AA
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: BOS
Programs: AA EXP 1MM, DL PM, Bonvoy Titanium (Plat Life), HH G, Amtrak, B6, MR
Posts: 1,548
The scope of UK 261 is for all flights departing from the UK. It only applies for flights arriving in the UK if the carrier is a Community or UK air carrier. Is AA considered a "Community" or "UK" air carrier? I don't know enough about how AA is licensed in the UK to answer this question.
This Regulation shall apply:
(a)to passengers departing from an airport located in [F1the United Kingdom];
[F2(b)to passengers departing from an airport located in a country other than the United Kingdom to an airport situated in—
(i)the United Kingdom if the operating air carrier of the flight concerned is a Community carrier or a UK air carrier; or
(ii)the territory of a Member State to which the Treaty applies if the operating air carrier of the flight concerned is a UK air carrier,
unless the passengers received benefits or compensation and were given assistance in that other country.]
(a)to passengers departing from an airport located in [F1the United Kingdom];
[F2(b)to passengers departing from an airport located in a country other than the United Kingdom to an airport situated in—
(i)the United Kingdom if the operating air carrier of the flight concerned is a Community carrier or a UK air carrier; or
(ii)the territory of a Member State to which the Treaty applies if the operating air carrier of the flight concerned is a UK air carrier,
unless the passengers received benefits or compensation and were given assistance in that other country.]
Last edited by sxpsxpsxp; Sep 30, 2022 at 8:59 am Reason: Fixed a typo
#2
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 95
In this case, AA must pay because the downgrade happened to a passenger departing from an airport (LHR) located in the United Kingdom. Article 3, section 1a: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2004/261/article/3
Indeed, AA has no obligations under the UK-261 regulation when landing into the UK (say, DFW-LHR).
Indeed, AA has no obligations under the UK-261 regulation when landing into the UK (say, DFW-LHR).
#3
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Wesley Chapel, FL
Programs: American Airlines
Posts: 30,005
In this case, AA must pay because the downgrade happened to a passenger departing from an airport (LHR) located in the United Kingdom. Article 3, section 1a: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2004/261/article/3
Indeed, AA has no obligations under the UK-261 regulation when landing into the UK (say, DFW-LHR).
Indeed, AA has no obligations under the UK-261 regulation when landing into the UK (say, DFW-LHR).
#4
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: BOS
Programs: AA EXP 1MM, DL PM, Bonvoy Titanium (Plat Life), HH G, Amtrak, B6, MR
Posts: 1,548
In this case, AA must pay because the downgrade happened to a passenger departing from an airport (LHR) located in the United Kingdom. Article 3, section 1a: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2004/261/article/3
Indeed, AA has no obligations under the UK-261 regulation when landing into the UK (say, DFW-LHR).
Indeed, AA has no obligations under the UK-261 regulation when landing into the UK (say, DFW-LHR).
#5
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London
Posts: 726
If you continue to have issues engaging AA on this matter due to their poor customer service, submit a claim via the UK Small Claims court - details on the BA Forum but they would apply to AA too. Try not wasting too much of your time due to AAs incompetence.
#6
Join Date: Jun 2016
Programs: BAEC Gold
Posts: 78
I've finally been offered compensation for a delayed flight after several emails to the customer relations team. I'm pretty pleased they're agreeing to pay out, as the delay was on a US domestic leg of a 2-leg itinerary to the west coast: it doesn't quite make up for the lost night stuck in some crappy airport hotel, but it certainly helps.
I'm curious if anyone knows how AA actually pay the compensation though? The email says they'll send a Check - but they ask for full bank details too? - Has anyone had any luck in just getting a normal IBAN/BIC bank transfer as payment of compensation?
For reference, many banks in Europe no longer accept checks, or charge exorbitant fees for cashing 'international' checks. I'd like to avoid the expensive and slow process of dealing with stone-age paper based money transfers if possible.
I'm curious if anyone knows how AA actually pay the compensation though? The email says they'll send a Check - but they ask for full bank details too? - Has anyone had any luck in just getting a normal IBAN/BIC bank transfer as payment of compensation?
For reference, many banks in Europe no longer accept checks, or charge exorbitant fees for cashing 'international' checks. I'd like to avoid the expensive and slow process of dealing with stone-age paper based money transfers if possible.
#7
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 95
Hi All: Does anyone know whether Article 10, regarding reimbursement (not compensation) for forcefully downgrading passengers has legal precedents as to who is entitled to make the claim and receive the reimbursement?
Asking because I paid for the trip of my wife who was downgraded from F to J in a LHR->DFW flight. Airline is non-responsive, and my wife does not live in the UK (I do).
Could I submit a MCOL claim given that I am the one technically entitled to the refund? I'm aware I can't fill a claim on her behalf.
Could I, alternatively, pursue a Section 75 claim with Amex? Mrs. Crastonts is, sadly, not interested in getting too involved with this.
Asking because I paid for the trip of my wife who was downgraded from F to J in a LHR->DFW flight. Airline is non-responsive, and my wife does not live in the UK (I do).
Could I submit a MCOL claim given that I am the one technically entitled to the refund? I'm aware I can't fill a claim on her behalf.
Could I, alternatively, pursue a Section 75 claim with Amex? Mrs. Crastonts is, sadly, not interested in getting too involved with this.
#8
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 95
[Update]: As of today, I can report that AA has issued a refund of only 937 GBP. The observant will no doubt realize this results from dividing 5000 GBP in 4 segments (1250 GBP) and refunding 75% of those 1250 GBP.
Now, I am not a lawyer but I think that calculation is clearly unfair. I am basing my thoughts on (i) common sense (how can you give equal weighting to a DFW-MTY and a LHR-DFW???) and (ii) the Steef Mennens case (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...CJ0255&from=en).
I transcribe the ruling in that case, bolding the key elements:
----
1.- Article 10(2), read in conjunction with Article 2(f), of Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 11 February 2004 establishing common rules on compensation and assistance to passengers in the event of denied boarding and of cancellation or long delay of flights, and repealing Regulation (EEC) No 295/91 must be interpreted as meaning that where a passenger is downgraded on a flight, the price to be taken into account in determining the reimbursement for the passenger affected is the price of the flight on which he was downgraded unless that price is not indicated on the ticket entitling him to transport on that flight, in which case it must be based on the part of the price of the ticket corresponding to the quotient resulting from the distance of that flight and the total distance which the passenger is entitled to travel.
2. Article 10(2) of Regulation No 261/2004 must be interpreted as meaning that, the price of the ticket to be taken into consideration for the purposes of determining the reimbursement owed to that passenger, where he is downgraded on a flight, is solely the price of the flight itself, to the exclusion of taxes and charges indicated on that ticket, as long as neither the requirement to pay those taxes and charges nor their amount depends on the class for which that ticket has been purchased.
----
AA is not refunding the 'carrier imposed fees' (which are not taxes, right?) and AA is giving equal weighting to all flights.
Once the refund is fully settled on my Amex, I intend to issue a letter before action to AA. If they don't put things right within 14 days of the letter, I will then use Section 75 credit card protection to chargeback the missing amount. My wife does not live in the UK (I do), so I'll like to avoid MCOL if possible.
Any thoughts from the forum? Thanks
Now, I am not a lawyer but I think that calculation is clearly unfair. I am basing my thoughts on (i) common sense (how can you give equal weighting to a DFW-MTY and a LHR-DFW???) and (ii) the Steef Mennens case (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...CJ0255&from=en).
I transcribe the ruling in that case, bolding the key elements:
----
1.- Article 10(2), read in conjunction with Article 2(f), of Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 11 February 2004 establishing common rules on compensation and assistance to passengers in the event of denied boarding and of cancellation or long delay of flights, and repealing Regulation (EEC) No 295/91 must be interpreted as meaning that where a passenger is downgraded on a flight, the price to be taken into account in determining the reimbursement for the passenger affected is the price of the flight on which he was downgraded unless that price is not indicated on the ticket entitling him to transport on that flight, in which case it must be based on the part of the price of the ticket corresponding to the quotient resulting from the distance of that flight and the total distance which the passenger is entitled to travel.
2. Article 10(2) of Regulation No 261/2004 must be interpreted as meaning that, the price of the ticket to be taken into consideration for the purposes of determining the reimbursement owed to that passenger, where he is downgraded on a flight, is solely the price of the flight itself, to the exclusion of taxes and charges indicated on that ticket, as long as neither the requirement to pay those taxes and charges nor their amount depends on the class for which that ticket has been purchased.
----
AA is not refunding the 'carrier imposed fees' (which are not taxes, right?) and AA is giving equal weighting to all flights.
Once the refund is fully settled on my Amex, I intend to issue a letter before action to AA. If they don't put things right within 14 days of the letter, I will then use Section 75 credit card protection to chargeback the missing amount. My wife does not live in the UK (I do), so I'll like to avoid MCOL if possible.
Any thoughts from the forum? Thanks
#9
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: KHOU/KIAH
Programs: AA EXP | Marriott Bonvoy Titanium| Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 11,246
[Update]: As of today, I can report that AA has issued a refund of only 937 GBP. The observant will no doubt realize this results from dividing 5000 GBP in 4 segments (1250 GBP) and refunding 75% of those 1250 GBP.
Now, I am not a lawyer but I think that calculation is clearly unfair. I am basing my thoughts on (i) common sense (how can you give equal weighting to a DFW-MTY and a LHR-DFW???) and (ii) the Steef Mennens case (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...CJ0255&from=en).
I transcribe the ruling in that case, bolding the key elements:
----
1.- Article 10(2), read in conjunction with Article 2(f), of Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 11 February 2004 establishing common rules on compensation and assistance to passengers in the event of denied boarding and of cancellation or long delay of flights, and repealing Regulation (EEC) No 295/91 must be interpreted as meaning that where a passenger is downgraded on a flight, the price to be taken into account in determining the reimbursement for the passenger affected is the price of the flight on which he was downgraded unless that price is not indicated on the ticket entitling him to transport on that flight, in which case it must be based on the part of the price of the ticket corresponding to the quotient resulting from the distance of that flight and the total distance which the passenger is entitled to travel.
2. Article 10(2) of Regulation No 261/2004 must be interpreted as meaning that, the price of the ticket to be taken into consideration for the purposes of determining the reimbursement owed to that passenger, where he is downgraded on a flight, is solely the price of the flight itself, to the exclusion of taxes and charges indicated on that ticket, as long as neither the requirement to pay those taxes and charges nor their amount depends on the class for which that ticket has been purchased.
----
AA is not refunding the 'carrier imposed fees' (which are not taxes, right?) and AA is giving equal weighting to all flights.
Once the refund is fully settled on my Amex, I intend to issue a letter before action to AA. If they don't put things right within 14 days of the letter, I will then use Section 75 credit card protection to chargeback the missing amount. My wife does not live in the UK (I do), so I'll like to avoid MCOL if possible.
Any thoughts from the forum? Thanks
Now, I am not a lawyer but I think that calculation is clearly unfair. I am basing my thoughts on (i) common sense (how can you give equal weighting to a DFW-MTY and a LHR-DFW???) and (ii) the Steef Mennens case (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...CJ0255&from=en).
I transcribe the ruling in that case, bolding the key elements:
----
1.- Article 10(2), read in conjunction with Article 2(f), of Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 11 February 2004 establishing common rules on compensation and assistance to passengers in the event of denied boarding and of cancellation or long delay of flights, and repealing Regulation (EEC) No 295/91 must be interpreted as meaning that where a passenger is downgraded on a flight, the price to be taken into account in determining the reimbursement for the passenger affected is the price of the flight on which he was downgraded unless that price is not indicated on the ticket entitling him to transport on that flight, in which case it must be based on the part of the price of the ticket corresponding to the quotient resulting from the distance of that flight and the total distance which the passenger is entitled to travel.
2. Article 10(2) of Regulation No 261/2004 must be interpreted as meaning that, the price of the ticket to be taken into consideration for the purposes of determining the reimbursement owed to that passenger, where he is downgraded on a flight, is solely the price of the flight itself, to the exclusion of taxes and charges indicated on that ticket, as long as neither the requirement to pay those taxes and charges nor their amount depends on the class for which that ticket has been purchased.
----
AA is not refunding the 'carrier imposed fees' (which are not taxes, right?) and AA is giving equal weighting to all flights.
Once the refund is fully settled on my Amex, I intend to issue a letter before action to AA. If they don't put things right within 14 days of the letter, I will then use Section 75 credit card protection to chargeback the missing amount. My wife does not live in the UK (I do), so I'll like to avoid MCOL if possible.
Any thoughts from the forum? Thanks
To clarify in case I wasn't clear - under your AAdvantage Account, go to Your Activity and open the posted trip. Find the base miles for each segment and divide that by 5.
In this example, CUN-DFW was 350/5 = 70 USD (out of a total 430/5 = 86 USD)
Last edited by Antarius; Oct 5, 2022 at 1:59 pm
#10
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 27,231
2. Article 10(2) of Regulation No 261/2004 must be interpreted as meaning that, the price of the ticket to be taken into consideration for the purposes of determining the reimbursement owed to that passenger, where he is downgraded on a flight, is solely the price of the flight itself, to the exclusion of taxes and charges indicated on that ticket, as long as neither the requirement to pay those taxes and charges nor their amount depends on the class for which that ticket has been purchased.
#11
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 95
I am not aware of further rulings on this. Yes, I do agree that for taxes that are proportionally affected according to the price of the ticket (such as the Mexican VAT), it is reasonable to expect a proportional refund.
This is certainly not the case for US security fees or UK passenger duty taxes (except when going from F/J to Y), which are fixed.
I think AA entirely controls the 'carrier surcharges', so a proportional refund there is more than reasonable. Otherwise, they could charge 1 GBP for the actual ticket, 4999 GBP on carrier surcharges, and avoid any meaningful responsibility. Hopefully I'm not giving them ideas!!!
This is certainly not the case for US security fees or UK passenger duty taxes (except when going from F/J to Y), which are fixed.
I think AA entirely controls the 'carrier surcharges', so a proportional refund there is more than reasonable. Otherwise, they could charge 1 GBP for the actual ticket, 4999 GBP on carrier surcharges, and avoid any meaningful responsibility. Hopefully I'm not giving them ideas!!!
#12
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,595
Well this doesn't seem to make total sense. Or maybe it's just not clear - any taxes calculated as a % of the base fare should also be proportionally refunded, no? And it also doesn't make reference to carrier-imposed surcharges, although perhaps those often do depends on the class purchased? (Prob not for F vs. J though...) Maybe there's another ruling on that piece?
I don't see that taxes that are calculated as percentage of fare would get refunded since the ticketed fatre tax will, I would think, have been remitted by the airline.
#13
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 95
Carrier surcharges are not taxes. I believe that it has been ruled that and so are not exempt and should be taken into account when calculating reimbursement due
I don't see that taxes that are calculated as percentage of fare would get refunded since the ticketed fatre tax will, I would think, have been remitted by the airline.
I don't see that taxes that are calculated as percentage of fare would get refunded since the ticketed fatre tax will, I would think, have been remitted by the airline.
#15
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 95
[Possibly final update] I wrote a polite, but very firmly-worded letter to all the executive contacts on the Elliot Advocacy webpage. I explained why the original refund offered was wrong and cited the UK261 regulation plus the precedent of the Steef Mennens case. Then, I told AA they were in breach of their obligations according to the UK261 regulation and explained that, without a response before the 10/11, I would be forced to take actions to obtain redress.
Today I received an e-mail from a more senior CS rep, who said they'd contact the Refunds Dept to adjust the amount according to the Steef Mennens precedent. A further refund followed shortly afterwards, which, in addition to the first one, roughly corresponds to 45% of 75% (if that makes sense) of the fare + carrier surcharges paid.
All in all, my wife and I are satisfied and consider that the clear articulation of the rights and judicial precedents ensured we received what was duly owed.
Today I received an e-mail from a more senior CS rep, who said they'd contact the Refunds Dept to adjust the amount according to the Steef Mennens precedent. A further refund followed shortly afterwards, which, in addition to the first one, roughly corresponds to 45% of 75% (if that makes sense) of the fare + carrier surcharges paid.
All in all, my wife and I are satisfied and consider that the clear articulation of the rights and judicial precedents ensured we received what was duly owed.