UPGRADES: “Waitlisted” “Cleared” “Confirmed” “Pulled” “ …Scammed?
Feb 1, 2008, 6:06 pm
#61
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Feb 1, 2008, 6:07 pm
#62
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Interesting point is that AA claims they own the instruments they allow us to use, as long as we keep within the confines of the Terms and Conditions we agree to when we use them (whether we have read them or not.)
To donate a package, miles, etc. you must receive the airline's permission (you ain't gonna get that permission to sell.) For a donation as a prize, it will take awhile to arrange this with someone in a management position, iirc, assuming they go for it (unless you are talking about WN coupons - I have donated mine to the local Shriners Hospital with nary a problem.)
OTOH, one can gift a VIP or award trip to anyone. I've gifted hotel packages, airline trips and upgrades to others, both related and unrelated, with never a problem - used the airlines and hotel to make the arrangements, in fact.
Where you ran into a problem, IMO, was assuming AA would be OK with your transferring a VIP as part of an automobile purchase, which AA saw as an incentive, a part of the purchase.
And American Airlines is hardly the only airline to maintain a proprietary interest in their instruments. The easy way to avoid all of this is merely do not belong to a frequent flyer programme.
To donate a package, miles, etc. you must receive the airline's permission (you ain't gonna get that permission to sell.) For a donation as a prize, it will take awhile to arrange this with someone in a management position, iirc, assuming they go for it (unless you are talking about WN coupons - I have donated mine to the local Shriners Hospital with nary a problem.)
OTOH, one can gift a VIP or award trip to anyone. I've gifted hotel packages, airline trips and upgrades to others, both related and unrelated, with never a problem - used the airlines and hotel to make the arrangements, in fact.
Where you ran into a problem, IMO, was assuming AA would be OK with your transferring a VIP as part of an automobile purchase, which AA saw as an incentive, a part of the purchase.
And American Airlines is hardly the only airline to maintain a proprietary interest in their instruments. The easy way to avoid all of this is merely do not belong to a frequent flyer programme.
Okay, I understand that selling a white envelope for $200 and getting a free eVIP upgrade should definitely be dealt with by AA. However I have personally run into two situations that I think were handled in a ridiculous manner by AA;
1) I was selling a car on eBay ($10,000) and as I had an extra eVIP that was about to expire in less than 3 months, I advertised that the buyer of my car could have the eVIP for free. AA saw the ad and froze my account and deducted the eVIP upgrade from my account. Did they call me to try to counsel me as to why they interpreted this to be against the rules? NO! I would have gladly removed that one line from my ad. When I spoke to them about it, they were about as rude as a person could be. They told me "tough", and that there was no way that they were going to consider placing the eVIP upgrade back into my account. They even said to sue if I wanted to! To make matters worse, I was flying later in the day, and when I got the the airport they revoked my EXP upgrade, even though we "worked things out" when we spoke earlier in the day. It turns out that when they re-activate your account, their wonderful system does not re-activate it realtime - it has to process overnight!
2) Since I had this run-in with AA, my daughter's school had a fundraiser to raise money for an established scholarship fund, and they asked me if I could donate either a mileage ticket or an eVIP upgrade. I phoned AA to "make sure" that it would be OK for me to DONATE either. The agent I spoke to said yes, and connected me to another person to arrange it. The other person (at the AAdvantage desk) said absolutely not. They said that I could only donate to a charity of AA's choice.
To me, both of these situations take their rules to an extreme. Maybe the biggest problem that I had with my first situation is that AA acts as the judge, jury, and executioner without asking for ANY additional information!!
Oh well, live and learn.
1) I was selling a car on eBay ($10,000) and as I had an extra eVIP that was about to expire in less than 3 months, I advertised that the buyer of my car could have the eVIP for free. AA saw the ad and froze my account and deducted the eVIP upgrade from my account. Did they call me to try to counsel me as to why they interpreted this to be against the rules? NO! I would have gladly removed that one line from my ad. When I spoke to them about it, they were about as rude as a person could be. They told me "tough", and that there was no way that they were going to consider placing the eVIP upgrade back into my account. They even said to sue if I wanted to! To make matters worse, I was flying later in the day, and when I got the the airport they revoked my EXP upgrade, even though we "worked things out" when we spoke earlier in the day. It turns out that when they re-activate your account, their wonderful system does not re-activate it realtime - it has to process overnight!
2) Since I had this run-in with AA, my daughter's school had a fundraiser to raise money for an established scholarship fund, and they asked me if I could donate either a mileage ticket or an eVIP upgrade. I phoned AA to "make sure" that it would be OK for me to DONATE either. The agent I spoke to said yes, and connected me to another person to arrange it. The other person (at the AAdvantage desk) said absolutely not. They said that I could only donate to a charity of AA's choice.
To me, both of these situations take their rules to an extreme. Maybe the biggest problem that I had with my first situation is that AA acts as the judge, jury, and executioner without asking for ANY additional information!!
Oh well, live and learn.
Feb 1, 2008, 6:09 pm
#63
Join Date: Aug 2003
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deleted
Last edited by shoodawg; Jun 6, 2009 at 5:01 am
Feb 1, 2008, 6:18 pm
#64
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Feb 1, 2008, 8:54 pm
#66
Join Date: Jan 2008
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FlyerTalk violating its own rules with Coupon Connection Trades et al
Doooo Doooo Dooooo Doooo
as in stepping in doggie stinky doo--dooo
Airlines are getting real nasty and cracking down now that there's heading into the black profitable column on their books so IF they can smack-down the cheats and those not playing by the rules they get to eliminate alot of their outstanding frequent flyer mileage, awards, vouchers, certificates, upgrades etc etc.
And on many of the most popular routes (especially domestic) the new trick is to play with the schedule and also use down-sized equipment so that there's less empty spaces available, which means F gets alot of fill as CASH
PAID rather than 'free' upgrades.
As for CC:
anytime there is CASH (currency, cheque, m.o., wire et al) exchanged or an exchange of things VALUE (called Bartering) in exchange for or involving a transaction regarding airline frequent flyer mileage in ANY FORM, be it miles,
certificates, travel vouchers, awards, including upgrades, you will find that
the situation is inclusive within the body of the specific airline rules in their terms and conditions that they consider such a SALE which is prohibited within the rules agreed to for use of such frequent flyer account(s).
Thus FlyerTalk itself by allowing trade via C/C is in itself violating its own rules against promotion of buying, selling and or bartering of airmiles in any of its form(s).
That said I am glad to hear that SafeFlyer receive a refund from the seller/ Those type of sellers are very rare. I know that if he relied on either eBay/Paypal for a refund or for AA to restore his u/g he would be waiting until both the Arctic AND Antarctica ice all melted away....
Last edited by Boston_Bulldog; Feb 1, 2008 at 9:02 pm
Feb 1, 2008, 9:48 pm
#67
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I've done it twice, and have actually gone into an eVIP "overdraft" situation. If the agents are good and know you, they can work wonders.
Feb 1, 2008, 10:31 pm
#68
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Cheers.
Feb 1, 2008, 10:35 pm
#69
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Feb 1, 2008, 11:02 pm
#70
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Are you certain?
Here is the copy from the EBay email which I dug out of the archives...
"American Airlines Systemwide VIP Upgrade
Unfortunately, eBay has removed this . All bids or offers on this listing have been canceled. Because the listing was ended, you no longer have any obligation to purchase this item.
Listings are removed for different reasons. For example:
- The way the item was listed may violate eBay policy.
- The sale of the item may be prohibited by eBay.
- The sale of the item may be prohibited by law.
- The removal may be part of a separate action taken by eBay that is unrelated to the listing itself.
We hope you understand that, due to privacy concerns, we're unable to discuss the details of why this listing was ended. However, please note that the removal of this listing should not suggest that this seller's standing in the eBay Community has been called into question."
Then some links about protecting yourself as a buyer.
Sure enough, when I checked the item, it had vanished. So had all history of the transaction except the feedback that the seller had already left me.
I had paid for the thing days earlier and the guy had already called to upgrade my transit. When I received this, I got suspicious, saw the upgrade disappear from my tix and decided to forward the email to PayPal saying that I had already paid and would like a Buyer Protection refund. Never contacted AA, never tried to re-contact the seller, who still has an account on Ebay.
I had the Buyer Protection refund in about 5 days, no other questions were asked (at least not to me).
Now, I'm not saying that experience will always be the case, in fact, I would wager that from the PayPal side of things it depends on who you talk to that day, much like when tx089 got one answer from one AAdvantage rep about the donation, and a completely different answer from another.
You sound very certain, though, and I was wondering if you had a different experience, inside information (like maybe you work for Ebay and know what they are supposed to do in these situations?).
Anyhow, not trying to argue, only saying that my experience was nearly the same, and had a very different result than the one you are proposing.
-SF
Feb 2, 2008, 12:02 am
#71
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PPS: This was a very confusing situation for me, and required several calls to the ExPlat desk. There was a noticeable difference in “friendliness” and understanding, depending on which agent answered the phone. I guess that’s true to a degree everywhere, but the disparity between some folks at the desk was stark.
Once the problem was indicated , there is no reason to push at them and expect you would still get the upgraded seats. Even if the EVIPs were already pulled when the upgrade was processed, AA could still revoke the upgrade.
I don't know why you expect all of the AA agents to be friendly given the situation. Since you are the one who broke the rules, what did you want them to do for you, let you keep the upgrades?
Feb 2, 2008, 12:09 am
#72
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I don't understand why you needed several calls to the EXP desk.
Once the problem was indicated , there is no reason to push at them and expect you would still get the upgraded seats. Even if the EVIPs were already pulled when the upgrade was processed, AA could still revoke the upgrade.
I don't know why you expect all of the AA agents to be friendly given the situation. Since you are the one who broke the rules, what did you want them to do for you, let you keep the upgrades?
Once the problem was indicated , there is no reason to push at them and expect you would still get the upgraded seats. Even if the EVIPs were already pulled when the upgrade was processed, AA could still revoke the upgrade.
I don't know why you expect all of the AA agents to be friendly given the situation. Since you are the one who broke the rules, what did you want them to do for you, let you keep the upgrades?
- Why would the OP not at least try to make sure that the upgrades would be honored? I would have done the same thing. There are many of us here who don't blindly accept arbitrary rules as law.
- Where exactly did the OP say that he/she expected the agents to be friendly?
Feb 2, 2008, 12:10 am
#73
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That sounds like the story the seller would be telling the OP, not something AA would tell him. It's not his account, AA shouldn't be discussing the details of it with him.
Feb 2, 2008, 12:14 am
#74
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The OP definitely should file a claim with PayPal. I bought a cellphone from ebay that was offered as "new." The phone didn't work and I was able to find a fair bit of evidence of fraud (serial number on phone didn't match serial number on box, lifetime usage on phone was inconsistent with a new phone, seller had recently purchased the exact same type of phone on ebay). I presented my claim to PayPal. They conducted an investigation and refunded my money.
Feb 2, 2008, 12:30 am
#75
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FWIW, I think the EVIP seller is not being truthful about the negative balance issue. You don't get to go negative that many miles, and I don't see what that has to do with EVIPs. Any miles they let you go negative, could be easily be restored. It's not that many miles. So, yes , the seller lied again.