if a flight is cancelled does flight crew get paid?

 
Old Jan 15, 08, 8:52 am
  #1  
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if a flight is cancelled does flight crew get paid?

I've always wondered if the crew is paid when a flight is cancelled.
I could see different levels at which this occurs: (1) flight is cancelled long before crew arrives at airport, (2) they are at the airport and then the flight is cancelled.
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Old Jan 15, 08, 9:47 am
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It's always been my understanding that the crew's pay begins when the parking brake is released and ends when the plane arrives at the gate upon arrival. It's merely conjecture on my part, but I'd say the answer to your question is no.

Last edited by dfwmusicman; Jan 15, 08 at 11:27 am
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Old Jan 15, 08, 10:28 am
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no, they're not.
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Old Jan 15, 08, 7:41 pm
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Originally Posted by sluggoaafa View Post
no, they're not.
There is some minimum hours or bid deal deal per month. If it gets near the end of month and AA can not provide a makeup, there is some pay applied.
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Old Jan 15, 08, 8:23 pm
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Originally Posted by dfwmusicman View Post
It's always been my understanding that the crew's pay begins when the parking brake is released and ends when the plane arrives at the gate upon arrival. It's merely conjecture on my part, but I'd say the answer to your question is no.
This isn't quite true. This is at least true of Comair, and I'm sure they have a union contract similar to others. The crew will get paid for the flight under the following circumstances:

1. Cancellation due to weather
2. Cancellation due to mechanical
3. Removal from the flight due to FAA flight rules (i.e. too much time worked for the crew)

I know quite a few FA's (mostly for Comair), and they have gotten paid for cancellations. I know one who sat in a hotel paid for by Comair for 2 days while her JFK flights were cancelled during this last snowstorm.

That is one of the very few upsides of the job. The union makes sure they get paid the time they're scheduled.

The downside is of course that if they sit at the gate without the door closed, then they do not get paid flight time but instead only ground/per diem time. In contrast, once the door is closed and they leave the gate, they're getting flight hours. And that time counts against the FAA duty day (which is why so many crews go illegal in the winter).

Of course, if the crew calls in sick or gets sick or hurt in the midst of a trip, there is no pay for the flights not worked. But if HQ cancels, the crew will be paid.
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Old Jan 15, 08, 8:55 pm
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Thanks for the update, chicaloca. I'd be interested to know if it works this way for AA and/or AE, too.
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Old Jan 25, 08, 10:50 am
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Originally Posted by dfwmusicman View Post
Thanks for the update, chicaloca. I'd be interested to know if it works this way for AA and/or AE, too.
AE pilots get 100% cancelation pay protection. What they bid, they get paid for.

AE F/As get 96% cancelation pay protection.

AA pilots do not get cancelation pay protection, but they will never go below min monthly guarantee. There is some clause about last trip of the month and make up, but I don't feel like looking it up in their contract
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Old Jan 25, 08, 11:00 am
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Originally Posted by sluggoaafa View Post
no, they're not.
Why should you be paid for not working?
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Old Jan 25, 08, 11:03 am
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Originally Posted by BenjaminNYC View Post
Why should you be paid for not working?
Because they showed up on time for work, and the inability to work was not their fault. If we have a power outage and I'm unable to work because our systems are down, I get paid. Yes, I know the whole exempt employee thing, but I believe that our hourly people would get paid in this situation since the failure was not theirs.

Cheers.
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Old Jan 25, 08, 11:08 am
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Originally Posted by brp View Post
Because they showed up on time for work, and the inability to work was not their fault. If we have a power outage and I'm unable to work because our systems are down, I get paid. Yes, I know the whole exempt employee thing, but I believe that our hourly people would get paid in this situation since the failure was not theirs.

Cheers.
But FA's are paid for the time they're flying (gate to gate, I guess??), so no flying = no pay. Are you proposing a change to this system?
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Old Jan 25, 08, 11:11 am
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Originally Posted by BenjaminNYC View Post
But FA's are paid for the time they're flying (gate to gate, I guess??), so no flying = no pay. Are you proposing a change to this system?
Yeah, good point. I'd suggest some sort of prorated pay in the case of cancellation, then, for FAs. Normal ops= pay for flying time; cancellation = some portion of anticipated pay.

Cheers.
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Old Jan 25, 08, 11:14 am
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Originally Posted by chicaloca453 View Post
This isn't quite true. This is at least true of Comair, and I'm sure they have a union contract similar to others. The crew will get paid for the flight under the following circumstances:

1. Cancellation due to weather
2. Cancellation due to mechanical
3. Removal from the flight due to FAA flight rules (i.e. too much time worked for the crew)

I know quite a few FA's (mostly for Comair), and they have gotten paid for cancellations. I know one who sat in a hotel paid for by Comair for 2 days while her JFK flights were cancelled during this last snowstorm.

That is one of the very few upsides of the job. The union makes sure they get paid the time they're scheduled.

The downside is of course that if they sit at the gate without the door closed, then they do not get paid flight time but instead only ground/per diem time. In contrast, once the door is closed and they leave the gate, they're getting flight hours. And that time counts against the FAA duty day (which is why so many crews go illegal in the winter).

Of course, if the crew calls in sick or gets sick or hurt in the midst of a trip, there is no pay for the flights not worked. But if HQ cancels, the crew will be paid.
Comair and United get paid.......as Sluggo already stated.......AA flight attendants don't get paid for cancellations due to weather, FAA duty day, mechanicals. The only time we get paid for a trip that cancels is if it it originates in the last 5 days of the month. Every once in awhile the company will throw us a bone and pay us for cancelling if there is a particularly bad storm.

If we show up and cancel, we have to call crew tracking to get released. If we get to go home we get 3 hours flight time for report for duty. We are good for 14 hours intl (and I think 13 domestic...sluggo?) so many times they like to hold us at the airport for awhile to see if they could get another plane together or use us on something else.

If we sit in the gate area and field a million questions and listen to rants and abuse, we don't get paid. If we sit with passengers for over one hour on the plane we get paid about 12% of our hourly flight pay for sitting there. If it is :59 minutes (it has to be more than an hour) on the plane with people waiting we get nothing but call out pay (3 flight hours). 3 flight hours doesn't really cut it when your trip was worth 15-26 hours. As brp stated in a previous post (thanks BTW) that we showed up for work and through no fault of our own we cancelled and now have to be penalized. It is not easy to find a replacement trip in the middle of the month, or the end, and especially not worth equal time so if we cancel we are basically SOL. And if we cancel we already lost one valuable day we could have been working and get zilch for it. Other airlines have pay protection and I always found it kind of funny that AA doesn't. It's definitely a union issue that needs to be addressed.

If you are a high time flyer you get days added to your schedule where you can have access to company BB trips that pop in there to put on your own schedule. Not in seniority order but first come first served basis. If you are a regular or low time flyer you have to make up your trips by going on the make up list. That list goes in seniority order. If you are a regular time flyer (only fly your schedule) and you go on make up and don't get a trip, you do not lose your hours and will get paid for your scheduled hours. You're basically on your own if you are a high time (overtime) or low time (drop most of your schedule) flyer.

Last edited by AAFA; Jan 25, 08 at 11:27 am Reason: highlighting sluggo in bold print!
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Old Jan 25, 08, 11:16 am
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Originally Posted by BenjaminNYC View Post
But FA's are paid for the time they're flying (gate to gate, I guess??), so no flying = no pay. Are you proposing a change to this system?
Extending brp's example, if you show up to work (I'm assuming an office job in this example) whereby your computer is not working and you have to wait for an hour or two for your IT/tech support people to fix the problem ... would you be happy if your company didn't pay you for those hours, since you aren't "working?"

I think that sluggoaafa is only expressing frustration that it is still time spent "on the job" representing the airline. After all, no one would argue that it's personal time and an F/A can do whatever they want until the doors are closed.

That's my take and my opinion. If you have a different take, I respect it, but disagree.
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Old Jan 25, 08, 11:25 am
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BenjaminNYC is going to pass out when he reads this...

Most airlines have duty/trip rigs. Basically a minimum amount of hours the crewmember must be paid.

Example: When my company sends me overseas on a 7 day trip, I want the most efficient trip possible. Good amount of flying, with long enough layovers to rest/eat, and minimum sit time on the ground. Obviously that is also the most efficient for the company. If that trip includes a 3 day layover somewhere, thats not very efficient, so they are going to pay me a minimum of 6 hrs per day. So I'll get 18 hours of pay for sitting in a hotel for 3 days. Not efficient for me or the company, but I'm being compensated.

So, how many 3 day layovers do you think they try to build??
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Old Jan 25, 08, 12:08 pm
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I'm certain that AA would entertain cost-neutral proposals to change the method by which the FAs are compensated. But since the FAs agreed to the current methods many years ago and the scheme seems to be working for AA, I sincerely doubt any significant changes are on the horizon.

Yes, certain cancellations will result in no pay for the FAs for that flight. Since it's highly unlikely that such cancellations will result in wage savings for AA (meaning the W-2 earnings of the affected FAs WON'T CHANGE due to the rare cancellations) due to the complex system of work rules and minimum monthly guarantees, the current system ain't gonna change.
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