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Learned something new about asking GA if flight is "on time" this weekend

Learned something new about asking GA if flight is "on time" this weekend

 
Old Mar 5, 07, 2:24 pm
  #31  
 
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Originally Posted by AEpilot76 View Post
I guess not, they should know better. If you're going JFK-LAX and there is fog slowing LAX down, then yes, you could have a wheels up time in JFK. The destinations served by AA from JFK don't generally have flow control issues...returning to JFK is a different story
"Wheels UP" is just some term used for when the wheels are actually off the ground. It's not necessarily just used as an indication of FLOW control INTO an airport....it's often used OUT of an airport as well.

Majority of my Captains with over 30 years flying use the term "WHEELS UP" for many rush hour departures out of JFK. My flying out of JFK has generally been to the west coast, with occasional flying to LHR, ZHR, ORD(AE) and MSP(NW). When flying in the 'rush hour' time frame at JFK, there is a normal slow down because of all the International Departures. With these flights departing slowly because JFK chooses to use only 1 runway for departures, the Airline will schedule the sit time on the tarmac/taxi-way.

Even though the "actual flying time" is less than the "scheduled flying time", all people will remember is sitting and waiting. It doesn't matter if you departed the gate on-time or arrived to the gate on-time, everyone hates just sitting around and hearing that you are #25 in line....especially when they say it's going to be 25-30 minutes before getting to the head of the line.
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Old Mar 5, 07, 2:43 pm
  #32  
 
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Originally Posted by sluggoaafa View Post
"Wheels UP" is just some term used for when the wheels are actually off the ground. It's not necessarily just used as an indication of FLOW control INTO an airport....it's often used OUT of an airport as well.

Majority of my Captains with over 30 years flying use the term "WHEELS UP" for many rush hour departures out of JFK. My flying out of JFK has generally been to the west coast, with occasional flying to LHR, ZHR, ORD(AE) and MSP(NW). When flying in the 'rush hour' time frame at JFK, there is a normal slow down because of all the International Departures. With these flights departing slowly because JFK chooses to use only 1 runway for departures, the Airline will schedule the sit time on the tarmac/taxi-way.

Even though the "actual flying time" is less than the "scheduled flying time", all people will remember is sitting and waiting. It doesn't matter if you departed the gate on-time or arrived to the gate on-time, everyone hates just sitting around and hearing that you are #25 in line....especially when they say it's going to be 25-30 minutes before getting to the head of the line.
Why would Captains with 30 yrs experience be using the term "wheels up" during the JFK rushhour? If you're #25 in line for takeoff you have no idea when your"wheels up" time is. I have NEVER heard this term used like that, nor do I ever anticipate hearing it used like that.

The "wheels up" time is set by ATC. You have a window of 5 min before to usually 5 after to be airborne. It is a concrete number, "wheels up at 1717 local", not wheels up somewhere in the next 30 minutes.

A flow control/wheels up time is always for the arrival airport, or for enroute spacing, not for the departure airport. It's to slow down the departure traffic destined for a certain airport
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Old Mar 5, 07, 10:59 pm
  #33  
 
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Given that the wheels up time almost seems to constantly change, it is perhaps not the best estimation of when the flight is actually going to go.
Ive never seen the wheels up estimate in RES, is it in DECS ? In which case not all agents have DECS access.

I know the first I usually hear of a change is from the ops guy saying "they just changed your wheels up time to about 30 minutes from now instead of 1hr and 20 mins. I know when I work our Eagle flights going in to ORD this seems a very common occurence.
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Old Mar 6, 07, 12:52 am
  #34  
 
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Originally Posted by jrhone View Post
Given that the wheels up time almost seems to constantly change, it is perhaps not the best estimation of when the flight is actually going to go.
Ive never seen the wheels up estimate in RES, is it in DECS ? In which case not all agents have DECS access.

I know the first I usually hear of a change is from the ops guy saying "they just changed your wheels up time to about 30 minutes from now instead of 1hr and 20 mins. I know when I work our Eagle flights going in to ORD this seems a very common occurence.
Yes, DECS....JS*DepAirport/Flow..... ex: JS*LIT/FLOW

What agent would not have access to DECS? All agents should be able to pull up a crew list shouldn't they?

Last edited by AEpilot76; Mar 6, 07 at 6:51 am
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Old Mar 6, 07, 3:42 am
  #35  
 
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or in DECS: FILFlight#

You will see, SCHEDULE, PLAN, ACTUAL. This will show you your scheduled departure, then it will show you what time you plan on taking off (even with ATC "WHEELS UP" into/out of ORD/MIA/JFK or anywhere) and what time you actually took off

Wheels up is not exclusive for ATC holds. Maybe at Eagle, but not Mainline. Either that or because they at 30 years Seniority, they're old and koo-koo
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Old Mar 6, 07, 6:50 am
  #36  
 
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Originally Posted by sluggoaafa View Post
or in DECS: FILFlight#

You will see, SCHEDULE, PLAN, ACTUAL. This will show you your scheduled departure, then it will show you what time you plan on taking off (even with ATC "WHEELS UP" into/out of ORD/MIA/JFK or anywhere) and what time you actually took off

Wheels up is not exclusive for ATC holds. Maybe at Eagle, but not Mainline. Either that or because they at 30 years Seniority, they're old and koo-koo
The FIL entry is for ACARS and delay reporting. If you looked at your planned OFF time, it will tell you one of two things... 1. IF there is flow control, and the dispatcher has the updated time, it will usually list your planned OFF time as your WHEELS UP time. 2. If there is no flow control, then, based on historical data, time of day, etc... the dispatcher lists the estimated OFF time for you.

The FIL entry is based on flight planning by the dispatcher and is only going to be available once the flight plan is created one hour before departure. Wheels up times due to ATC can change once the flight is blocked out, and that will only change the "planned" OFF time in the FIL entry if the crew or dispatcher updates it.

Example:
PERF SKED PLAN
DFW 0720 0720
DFW 0736
HOU 0821
-4 HOU 0830 0826
ON-TIME ANALYSIS--

The dispatcher is planning for the flight to block out on time at 720am this morning. There is no ATC flow to houston, so based on average taxi times and delays 730am in the morning, he's planning on the flight being off the ground at 736am. The dispatcher, based on winds and cruise airspeed, is planning on the flight arriving at 0826, which is 4 minutes ahead of schedule. This is all HYPOTHETICAL based on what the numbers in the flight plan say, not what is actually happening.

Oh, and Wheels up time is the same anywhere in aviation. It's not unique to Eagle. Remember, Eagle and AA use the same exact computer systems, it's all the same crap.
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Old Mar 6, 07, 7:15 am
  #37  
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Originally Posted by AEpilot76 View Post
The FIL entry is for ACARS and delay reporting. If you looked at your planned OFF time, it will tell you one of two things... 1. IF there is flow control, and the dispatcher has the updated time, it will usually list your planned OFF time as your WHEELS UP time. 2. If there is no flow control, then, based on historical data, time of day, etc... the dispatcher lists the estimated OFF time for you.

The FIL entry is based on flight planning by the dispatcher and is only going to be available once the flight plan is created one hour before departure. Wheels up times due to ATC can change once the flight is blocked out, and that will only change the "planned" OFF time in the FIL entry if the crew or dispatcher updates it.

Example:
PERF SKED PLAN
DFW 0720 0720
DFW 0736
HOU 0821
-4 HOU 0830 0826
ON-TIME ANALYSIS--

The dispatcher is planning for the flight to block out on time at 720am this morning. There is no ATC flow to houston, so based on average taxi times and delays 730am in the morning, he's planning on the flight being off the ground at 736am. The dispatcher, based on winds and cruise airspeed, is planning on the flight arriving at 0826, which is 4 minutes ahead of schedule. This is all HYPOTHETICAL based on what the numbers in the flight plan say, not what is actually happening.

Oh, and Wheels up time is the same anywhere in aviation. It's not unique to Eagle. Remember, Eagle and AA use the same exact computer systems, it's all the same crap.
Sluggo, I've gotta say that, from my perspective, AEpilot sounds pretty convincing, and what he has stated in prior posts is consistent with my experience. Might I suggest that instead of continuing this debate, you share this with some of the 30-year 767 captains and see what they think?
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Old Mar 6, 07, 7:25 am
  #38  
 
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What agent would not have access to DECS? All agents should be able to pull up a crew list shouldn't they?
Not sure why some dont . Maybe they just tell me they dont to avoid having to use it .
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Old Mar 6, 07, 7:27 am
  #39  
 
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Originally Posted by jrhone View Post
Not sure why some dont . Maybe they just tell me they dont to avoid having to use it .
That's probably true
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Old Mar 6, 07, 8:09 am
  #40  
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Originally Posted by SquareDanceGuy View Post
Most of us are old enough to drive, so we do not have a party picking us up.
Neither one of those statements would be confirmed by the types of posts on FT.
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Old Mar 6, 07, 9:07 am
  #41  
 
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so according to the hypothetical example that aepilot just gave, it would be useless to ask the agents what the wheels up time would be since everything starts at blocked out time...including the ATC hold.......hypothetically speaking.

however, hypothetically looking at JS*LGA/flow shows no ATC delays this AM.....however, FILFlight# shows LGA ATC delay....wonder which would be correct.

Oh wait, HNN Reporter Rally Samparas is saying up to 1hr delays so far at NY airports....I'll trust him. Not the guys who have been in the industry for really long time.

I'm done with this tennis match. Its not going anywhere when two people are correct in what they are saying.
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Old Mar 6, 07, 9:15 am
  #42  
 
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Originally Posted by sluggoaafa View Post
so according to the hypothetical example that aepilot just gave, it would be useless to ask the agents what the wheels up time would be since everything starts at blocked out time...including the ATC hold.......hypothetically speaking.

however, hypothetically looking at JS*LGA/flow shows no ATC delays this AM.....however, FILFlight# shows LGA ATC delay....wonder which would be correct.

Oh wait, HNN Reporter Rally Samparas is saying up to 1hr delays so far at NY airports....I'll trust him. Not the guys who have been in the industry for really long time.

I'm done with this tennis match. Its not going anywhere when two people are correct in what they are saying.
If you are looking for the 1hr delays Mr Rally on headline news is talking about, look at JS*MIA/FLOW or JS*ATL/FLOW.....you'll see all the flights headed to LGA are delayed. JS*LGA/FLOW doesn't have any delays because there is no flow control times for the destinations served by AA from LGA
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Old Mar 6, 07, 10:07 am
  #43  
 
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Originally Posted by sluggoaafa View Post
"Wheels UP" is just some term used for when the wheels are actually off the ground. It's not necessarily just used as an indication of FLOW control INTO an airport....it's often used OUT of an airport as well.
At airports like JFK in rush hour, you never know when you will be up. The only thing preventing you from taking off is the long lines of a/c in front of you. Most of the flights are to airports where there are not flow-control issues. The "wheels up" time isn't known because you're sitting in a line, but once you reach the active runway it is rare that ATC will prevent you from departing because of flow control.

Now take an AE flight, SDF-ORD ... or more recently a TPA-ORD I did on mainline AA. I look at www.fly.faa.gov in the terminal and see a "ground hold" for flow control at ORD.

We board a/c. Sure enough, we push back and are then advised we'd be waiting due to flow control and that we have been given a wheel's up time of 7:20pm. It's only 6:30pm (delayed 4:30pm departure), so we taxi over to a tarmac area by the active and wait. Flow control allowed us to proceed a few minutes early, so we made the final part of the taxi to the active runway and off we went.

When the plane boarded at the gate, I'd think there would be a 'wheels up departure time' in the system. I knew we'd have a flow control delay before I even boarded, even though we had no departure traffic in front of us. There were no lines getting out of TPA -- as there would be at JFK at that time in the evening -- but there were flow control issues for ORD which would not allow us to depart TPA despite wide open active runways with an occassional departure/arrival.

I don't experience this flying into DFW often, but it happens when trying to get to ORD, LGA, PHL, and EWR on a somewhat regular basis. Doesn't matter what airline either -- everyone is subject to flow control.

SDF_Traveler

P.S. I actually do recall one flight ex-JFK that was subject to a flow control delay. I had arrived from FCO, cleared Customs/Immigrations and made my connecting flight, JFK-CVG, which pushed back on-time. Despite an on-time pushback, we weren't going anywhere. CVG was on a flow-control ground-stop because President Bush visited Ohio and messed up operations at CVG. We took a position on the tarmac and waited about an hour for ATC flow-control to release us to CVG. Fortunately JFK ground/ATC allowed us to take a position where we were able to cut the "rush-hour" line for departure once the release was given.

Last edited by SDF_Traveler; Mar 6, 07 at 12:58 pm Reason: added JFK comment
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