atmd

Following a storm-related flight cancellation, I was rebooked on the 6am ORD to DFW. Fair enough. Mind you, all flights on that Sunday evening were cancelled as ORD was closed by ATC at around 8:30pm. The 6am plane had been at the gate since 7:45 pm Sunday (per gate agent).

5:25am, usual flight announcements that boarding to begin shortly.

5:34am, boarding to begin, as soon as the plane was cleaned.

5:57am, cleaning crew arrives, coffee and Twinkie in hand.

6:35am, cleaning complete, boarding commences

7:07am, push back--67 minutes behind schedule.

In summary, a plane idle for almost 12 hours has a 67 min flight delay because it is not cleaned!

I contrast this to the approach and attitude at Southwest. A team effort for a quick turn-around at the gate. I must fly AA on this route because of the Wright rules and my low status means I am going to be in coach anyway on this heavy elite flight. But when that barrier falls, how can AA compete? SW has lower fares, better schedules and better on-time performance for the rank-and-file traveler like myself.

flipside

Try flying SW to Hawaii, upgrading, earning or using miles on hundreds of partners, or flying international.

atmd

I guess I fly for all the wrong reasons-like getting to my destination without undue delays from overdue plane cleanings.

SeeTheLights

It just depends what you are looking for. If it is short domestic flights, WN may be your best bet (although I can't stand printing off the letter boarding passes, waiting in line, etc.). If you are looking for a carrier where you can earn elite status, upgrade, fly internationally, Hawaii, etc., then WN is not worth flying.

Also, in my opinion, WN often cancels and/or delays flights...

sohony

aa is no worse than anyone else
and often better
look at the govt ontime records
BUT aa does have the best frequent flyer program if you like to fly internationally and get upgraded!

olimaspecto

YMMV as with anything else. Sometimes SW is better, sometimes its UA or DL or B6. It all depends on what you need and what type of benefits you value.

brp

^. I simply love the attitude and work ethic at WN. They are more cheerful, planes are generally cleaner, and their turnaround is much faster. As noted, I can't upgrade or fly internationally on WN...but for flights where AA has RJs, I much prefer WN. I already fly over 100K on AA, so I'm not losing anything, but gaining quite a bit on these routes.

Cheers.

Howgart

Exact same for me except substitute B6 for WN. I use B6 to connect from Buffalo to JFK on average 3x per month. I think they're great. I also think AA is great for the myriad reasons discussed here on a regular basis.

However, if the OP's original assertion is correct, that the plane in fact could have been cleaned overnight, then I think he has a right to be upset. Given the delay and the hassle of juggling travel plans (which we've all been through and dislike) I think were I in his shoes, I would have been annoyed too. What we don't know is whether there are union rules, staffing problems, or other possible reasons why the plane didn't get cleaned over night. There are always lots of possible alternative reasons why things do or don't happen.

Bottom line.... if we ignore the red herring "let's compare AA to other airlines and talk about why they don't measure up" debate, and assuming the plane could have been cleaned earlier, I think the OP has a reasonable gripe. What do you all think?

observer

I had the same experience last week on a flight from ORD. The plane had been at the gate for over an hour. It had been catered, fueled, etc. At boarding time, the GA went down the jetway to the plane to make certain that the crew was ready. They were. But only at this hour -- 30 minutes before scheduled departure -- did someone realize that the plane had not been cleaned. Someone then called for the cleaners. About 10 minutes later, they arrived. Another 10 minutes later they had completed their work. Pushback was 15 minutes late. All because of cleaning which could/should have been done on time.

AA53

I agree. I fly WN all over TX for convenience and never having to fly an RJ. If WN gets Wright amendment relief, AA is in for some serious competition. It is amazing how fast WN can load and unload an airplane.

ricktoronto

Just watch A&E "Airline" to see examples of that and their 30% overbooking on weekend flights to places like Las Vegas.

JDiver

I certainly hear everyone's plane pain. IMO, a goodly part of the reason for this is the stultified and fossilized airline culture.

WN (I am fairly sure nobody here is actually addressing their experiences on Air Nambia, IATA code SW,) is unionized, but even when it was only an intra-Texas airline the die had been cast in terms of the airline's culture. The employees grew up with a "can-do" attitude and cross-trained employees. Even Herb Kelleher might show up and do ticket counter duty or baggage check duty (in days of yore, of course.) I know a guy (now retired) who was issued a pair of screamingly loud Bermuda shorts at his first interview for a pilot position, and was told to wear them at his second interview. They were not so interested in whether he learned to fly from the Navy or Air Force, or his tastes in wines, as the legacy carriers were at the time; they knew he was properly licensed and certified to fly their aircraft. They also wanted to know about his attitude and personal flexibility, to see if he would fit in with the Southwest culture. (NO, WN is hardly perfect…)

AA grew up with the traditional legacy carrier culture - many unions, a military-based hierarchy (hence words like flagship, Admirals Club, Captain, First Officer, Steward/ess, etc.) and firm separation of duties - rather than do something outside of your job scope as agreed to by the airline and union, someone belonging to another work caste / union was called upon to do it. Managers NEVER did anything menial or mixed much with operations people. A real occupational caste system, almost as rigid as anything in India.

Things haven't changed much. The pilots are happier strutting in packs down the pier wearing their leather bomber jackets, knowing they have such higher status than FAs; the FAs feel their caste is higher than the GAs, the GAs complain when they must do both ticket counter and gate duty, the luggage handlers complain because they are not appreciated, but hey, at least wing walkers and tug operators are better - everyone has another caste to dump on and yet another to feel superior to. "It's not my job" and "it's not my time" are protective mantras used to evade "another's" work and customer satisfaction. Yet their job safety and wellbeing are interdependent; enthused and creative customer service would be a major distinguishing factor in an age of one-eyed price-fixing and arcane onion-layer fare structures.

One result? An aircraft sits at the gate, cleaning an afterthought, because it isn’t the GA's job, it isn't the ramp crew's job, it isn't the FA's job - in fact, FAs only start getting paid when the wheels move at pushback, so there's an attitudinal barrier (cleaners are a lower occupational caste and cleaning is an undesirable and onerous duty) and an incentive barrier (if they ain't gonna pay me, I ain't gonna do it, and it's someone else's job anyway,) etc. Whoever is responsible for scheduling these things is possibly concerned with getting the aircraft fueled and services, so cleaning takes a low priority - yet passengers see the filth and think "I wonder how this bird is maintained?" I certainly used to think that, seeing loose ceiling panels or duct tape on a transoceanic PAA 747 as I took my seat.

Who am I casting blame on? In all my years of consulting, I have yet to find a verifiable case of corporate culture trickling up from the mailroom. I have worked with companies who have overhauled their corporate culture, and it always began with imaginative and far-sighted leadership, who walked, talked the new way and made sure it penetrated every organizational nook and cranny, who refused to allow the old mud bog them down. I blame it on stultified, unimaginative and blinkered leadership, as well as an antiquated and arteriosclerotic culture that would admittedly be challengingly difficult to turn around. They have the titles, they have the pay, they act the part, but they are lacking in the "right stuff" to accomplish such a major change, I don't know if there's anyone out there who has it - or, if they did, would want to take on a challenge like a legacy carrier.

AA would benefit hugely, IMO, from moving to a new culture where "can do" is the way, and the silos / barriers come down. It could happen, I firmly believe. But it would take creative and inspiring leadership I do not see within any branch AA at this time; no employee group, certainly no management people, who will come down from their lofty perch and set the tone. I believe something truly radical like this could turn ANY of the "sick six" airline around and set it up to lead in this century - but it's not on my radar scope just now. We have arrived at a moment where mediocrity is the epitome, where radical solutions are replacing cashews with soybeans, a few older aircraft are parked at Mojave, RJs replace "Super" DC-9s on steroids domestically, and the six fight to extend overseas services.

I have had the pleasure of meeting a number of AA employees who at least do their job well or beyond - but on the average... and where it counts, at the top... the stratified, silo-think continues. Cutting salaries, reducing quality and costs, like eliminating cloth towels and olives up front, worked before. So, we'll just do it more and more, like the buggy-whip maker who merely cuts production costs thinking that will somehow keep buggy whips selling in an era of automobiles.

AA, we who fly you frequently and stubbornly (I have well over 50 years flying this airline, among others - many now defunct, like EA, PS, WA, TW, PA,) are waiting and hoping for the cleaner(s) to come - AA leadership, where are you?

[/RANT]

spacewrangler

I had a simliar experience recently on a flight from PDX. We departed on-time but the aircraft was filthy. The lav appeared not to have been serviced in several days - with a stench that rivaled any public restroom in Calcutta - complete with overflowing trash can. Not to mention the nasty tray table and seat back pockets. Oh yeah, by the way, this was on WN to SJC.

Just a point that everyone slips up.

West Coast Ace

a) what does the title have to do with the thread; b) OP admits the night before things were thrown out of whach due to the weather issues.

It's called 'work rules' - B6 and others don't have to worry about them. The biggies do.

67 minutes isn't the end of the world. And I'd hope that business associates would understand given the weather issues. Anyone who's never experienced a weather related travel delay must never leave their house.

markdkc

...well not much to add after JDiver's post!

However, I will add the following insight; when I end-up stuck over night (it happens several times a year to me) and end-up on an early morning flight, the flight is almost always significantly late.

I'm sure that some of the time it is crew related issues, I don't doubt that some of the time it is something stupid like cleaning and catering.

My point here is that with a bit better organization and meanigfully better attitude AA could either move the metal on time or equally valuable to sleep deprived passengers let us know when they rebook us that the XAM flight will not be departing until YAM.

It is about attitude as much as problem solving; our airline can do better!