The value of international J as defined by AA
Dec 23, 2004, 7:03 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: USA
Programs: AA-CK, Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Lifetime Titanium
Posts: 1,449
The value of international J as defined by AA
Couple of weekends ago, I did a mileage run to CDG. A colleague went with and we both upgraded using my eVIP’s.
AA 42, on that night, was not one of AA’s better efforts. Here is a list of the items wrong with the flight:
- my colleagues seat would not recline fully
- no newspapers available at all
- no DVD players
- champagne was gone in less than hour after take off
- delayed for over an hour (no reason given – not weather).
I contacted AA via their web site explaining the situation to them and asking for my two eVIP’s be reinstated as my colleague definitely did not have a J class experience nor did I for that matter. The response from AA is:
I can certainly understand how disappointing it must have been when we did not give you or your colleague Mr. Chris xxxxxx the excellent service that we seek to provide. Please accept my sincere apology -- I truly sympathize with your experience. We failed to live up to your expectations -- and ours -- by not performing better than we did when you both upgraded to business class on flight 42. You may be sure that we have taken the appropriate corrective action as a result of your email.
We are eager to restore your confidence and retain your goodwill. Although it is not
our policy to provide refunds of eVIP upgrades in these cases as the added space is
the biggest benefit of traveling up front, as a gesture of good will I have credited
30,000 bonus miles to your AAdvantage® account in this case. You will see the miles reflected shortly on AA.com.
Mr. xxxxxx, we are committed to providing high quality service. Although I know
we've disappointed you and Mr. xxxxxxx on this occasion, please do not think that we are satisfied with anything less than excellence. We will always work hard to fulfill your expectations.
During this holiday season, all of us here at American Airlines would like to extend
to you and your family our very best wishes for happiness and peace. May you find
many opportunities to spend time together in celebration and thanks as the
New Year approaches.
My comment is that it is really sad that AA feels that the main benefit of J is the space. I would argue that it is a fully functional comfortable seat. I can get space in row 31, in coach, on 777! Also, that AA apparently does not place any value on the other aspects of international J service, other than charging more for it in actual dollars or in miles and a co-pay!
My reaction to the 30,000 miles is that it is better than nothing but it is not adequate. What do you all think? Should I accept it or repeat my original request?
AA 42, on that night, was not one of AA’s better efforts. Here is a list of the items wrong with the flight:
- my colleagues seat would not recline fully
- no newspapers available at all
- no DVD players
- champagne was gone in less than hour after take off
- delayed for over an hour (no reason given – not weather).
I contacted AA via their web site explaining the situation to them and asking for my two eVIP’s be reinstated as my colleague definitely did not have a J class experience nor did I for that matter. The response from AA is:
I can certainly understand how disappointing it must have been when we did not give you or your colleague Mr. Chris xxxxxx the excellent service that we seek to provide. Please accept my sincere apology -- I truly sympathize with your experience. We failed to live up to your expectations -- and ours -- by not performing better than we did when you both upgraded to business class on flight 42. You may be sure that we have taken the appropriate corrective action as a result of your email.
We are eager to restore your confidence and retain your goodwill. Although it is not
our policy to provide refunds of eVIP upgrades in these cases as the added space is
the biggest benefit of traveling up front, as a gesture of good will I have credited
30,000 bonus miles to your AAdvantage® account in this case. You will see the miles reflected shortly on AA.com.
Mr. xxxxxx, we are committed to providing high quality service. Although I know
we've disappointed you and Mr. xxxxxxx on this occasion, please do not think that we are satisfied with anything less than excellence. We will always work hard to fulfill your expectations.
During this holiday season, all of us here at American Airlines would like to extend
to you and your family our very best wishes for happiness and peace. May you find
many opportunities to spend time together in celebration and thanks as the
New Year approaches.
My comment is that it is really sad that AA feels that the main benefit of J is the space. I would argue that it is a fully functional comfortable seat. I can get space in row 31, in coach, on 777! Also, that AA apparently does not place any value on the other aspects of international J service, other than charging more for it in actual dollars or in miles and a co-pay!
My reaction to the 30,000 miles is that it is better than nothing but it is not adequate. What do you all think? Should I accept it or repeat my original request?
Dec 23, 2004, 7:15 am
#2
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Miami, FL
Programs: AA EXP/Marriott Plat/Hertz PC
Posts: 12,724
The truth is out. AA says that J is about the space; there is no business product.
Dec 23, 2004, 7:21 am
#3
formerly gemini573
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: LAX, HKG, and BKK
Programs: CX Emerald, WOH Globalist, Marriott Platinum, AA Lifetime Platinum, Virtuoso, Prive, STEPS, STARS
Posts: 2,233
Originally Posted by MikeFly
Couple of weekends ago, I did a mileage run to CDG. A colleague went with and we both upgraded using my eVIP’s.
AA 42, on that night, was not one of AA’s better efforts. Here is a list of the items wrong with the flight:
- my colleagues seat would not recline fully
- no newspapers available at all
- no DVD players
- champagne was gone in less than hour after take off
- delayed for over an hour (no reason given – not weather).
I contacted AA via their web site explaining the situation to them and asking for my two eVIP’s be reinstated as my colleague definitely did not have a J class experience nor did I for that matter. The response from AA is:
I can certainly understand how disappointing it must have been when we did not give you or your colleague Mr. Chris xxxxxx the excellent service that we seek to provide. Please accept my sincere apology -- I truly sympathize with your experience. We failed to live up to your expectations -- and ours -- by not performing better than we did when you both upgraded to business class on flight 42. You may be sure that we have taken the appropriate corrective action as a result of your email.
We are eager to restore your confidence and retain your goodwill. Although it is not
our policy to provide refunds of eVIP upgrades in these cases as the added space is
the biggest benefit of traveling up front, as a gesture of good will I have credited
30,000 bonus miles to your AAdvantage® account in this case. You will see the miles reflected shortly on AA.com.
Mr. xxxxxx, we are committed to providing high quality service. Although I know
we've disappointed you and Mr. xxxxxxx on this occasion, please do not think that we are satisfied with anything less than excellence. We will always work hard to fulfill your expectations.
During this holiday season, all of us here at American Airlines would like to extend
to you and your family our very best wishes for happiness and peace. May you find
many opportunities to spend time together in celebration and thanks as the
New Year approaches.
My comment is that it is really sad that AA feels that the main benefit of J is the space. I would argue that it is a fully functional comfortable seat. I can get space in row 31, in coach, on 777! Also, that AA apparently does not place any value on the other aspects of international J service, other than charging more for it in actual dollars or in miles and a co-pay!
My reaction to the 30,000 miles is that it is better than nothing but it is not adequate. What do you all think? Should I accept it or repeat my original request?
AA 42, on that night, was not one of AA’s better efforts. Here is a list of the items wrong with the flight:
- my colleagues seat would not recline fully
- no newspapers available at all
- no DVD players
- champagne was gone in less than hour after take off
- delayed for over an hour (no reason given – not weather).
I contacted AA via their web site explaining the situation to them and asking for my two eVIP’s be reinstated as my colleague definitely did not have a J class experience nor did I for that matter. The response from AA is:
I can certainly understand how disappointing it must have been when we did not give you or your colleague Mr. Chris xxxxxx the excellent service that we seek to provide. Please accept my sincere apology -- I truly sympathize with your experience. We failed to live up to your expectations -- and ours -- by not performing better than we did when you both upgraded to business class on flight 42. You may be sure that we have taken the appropriate corrective action as a result of your email.
We are eager to restore your confidence and retain your goodwill. Although it is not
our policy to provide refunds of eVIP upgrades in these cases as the added space is
the biggest benefit of traveling up front, as a gesture of good will I have credited
30,000 bonus miles to your AAdvantage® account in this case. You will see the miles reflected shortly on AA.com.
Mr. xxxxxx, we are committed to providing high quality service. Although I know
we've disappointed you and Mr. xxxxxxx on this occasion, please do not think that we are satisfied with anything less than excellence. We will always work hard to fulfill your expectations.
During this holiday season, all of us here at American Airlines would like to extend
to you and your family our very best wishes for happiness and peace. May you find
many opportunities to spend time together in celebration and thanks as the
New Year approaches.
My comment is that it is really sad that AA feels that the main benefit of J is the space. I would argue that it is a fully functional comfortable seat. I can get space in row 31, in coach, on 777! Also, that AA apparently does not place any value on the other aspects of international J service, other than charging more for it in actual dollars or in miles and a co-pay!
My reaction to the 30,000 miles is that it is better than nothing but it is not adequate. What do you all think? Should I accept it or repeat my original request?
Last edited by 77W_12A; Dec 23, 2004 at 7:35 am
Dec 23, 2004, 7:41 am
#4
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,748
1. Until AA starts to get these sort of complaints from paid J travel, they will just throw a bunch of funny money (read miles) at you with a form letter just to get you off their back. CO had an advisory for its FAs that seats must be tested before flight and any seat with problems should not be assigned to paid customers. Don't know if AA does anything like that.
2. As long as every complaint is couched as people looking for "compensation", AA will develop (or has already developed) an attitude (and I am not saying they are justified) that says people will complain for anything to get back some or all of what they paid. Combine this with the realization that things WILL continue to fail and their state of maintenance cannot satisfy everyone, they will factor that into their operations and throw funny money at you. Much cheaper than actually fixing something.
Not faulting anything in the original post but just observing that getting compensation and getting things to change are not necessarily synonymous. People need to decide whether they want an airline that fixes things or an airline that throws them "keep quiet money" in dog biscuits. The approach in the OP can do the latter but not the former.
I can only imagine what happens when things like this go wrong after people have paid $500 in co-pay. That money isn't big enough for AA to ensure that all things are fixed, bubbly is flowing freely and FAs are friendly. At the same time, that amount is too high for people to settle for anything less.
What a mess.
2. As long as every complaint is couched as people looking for "compensation", AA will develop (or has already developed) an attitude (and I am not saying they are justified) that says people will complain for anything to get back some or all of what they paid. Combine this with the realization that things WILL continue to fail and their state of maintenance cannot satisfy everyone, they will factor that into their operations and throw funny money at you. Much cheaper than actually fixing something.
Not faulting anything in the original post but just observing that getting compensation and getting things to change are not necessarily synonymous. People need to decide whether they want an airline that fixes things or an airline that throws them "keep quiet money" in dog biscuits. The approach in the OP can do the latter but not the former.
I can only imagine what happens when things like this go wrong after people have paid $500 in co-pay. That money isn't big enough for AA to ensure that all things are fixed, bubbly is flowing freely and FAs are friendly. At the same time, that amount is too high for people to settle for anything less.
What a mess.
Dec 23, 2004, 8:18 am
#5
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Dallas
Programs: AA PLT/5MM; AS MVP GLD 75K; DL DM; EK SLV; HHonors DIAM; Marriott GLD
Posts: 4,092
Originally Posted by venk
I can only imagine what happens when things like this go wrong after people have paid $500 in co-pay. That money isn't big enough for AA to ensure that all things are fixed, bubbly is flowing freely and FAs are friendly. At the same time, that amount is too high for people to settle for anything less.
What a mess.
What a mess.
Dec 23, 2004, 9:28 am
#6
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 63,608
Less than perfect isn't the same as nothing at all.
Reviewing the 5 enumerated objections,
my colleagues seat would not recline fully
It's a mechanical problem which isn't unique to AA and isn't indicative of anything else. Presumably it'll be fixed. It also only affected 1 person out of 2. I assume your seat was fine.
no newspapers available at all
Certainly a ground staff problem, because the FA's certainly can't affect that.
no DVD players
I assume this means you were on a 763 without IFE's. Definitely a problem with AA's ground crew if they can't provide the DVD players or newspapers.
champagne was gone in less than hour after take off
Did AA under-provision the champagne or did your fellow passengers just drink a lot of it? You were sitting on the ground for over an hour, so did that affect how much people drank? Either way, AA could have done better.
delayed for over an hour (no reason given – not weather).
This has nothing to do with the "business class experience". It could have been an equipment malfunction, crew scheduling, ground hold due to the tower, etc.... I don't see how this factors into things at all.
Overall, I think that there are a couple of glitches and 1 major problem - seat malfunction. AA's offer is fair, and your indictment of the whole "experience" seems a bit harsh.
Even airlines with high reputation for service like BA, CX, or SQ has days like this.
Reviewing the 5 enumerated objections,
my colleagues seat would not recline fully
It's a mechanical problem which isn't unique to AA and isn't indicative of anything else. Presumably it'll be fixed. It also only affected 1 person out of 2. I assume your seat was fine.
no newspapers available at all
Certainly a ground staff problem, because the FA's certainly can't affect that.
no DVD players
I assume this means you were on a 763 without IFE's. Definitely a problem with AA's ground crew if they can't provide the DVD players or newspapers.
champagne was gone in less than hour after take off
Did AA under-provision the champagne or did your fellow passengers just drink a lot of it? You were sitting on the ground for over an hour, so did that affect how much people drank? Either way, AA could have done better.
delayed for over an hour (no reason given – not weather).
This has nothing to do with the "business class experience". It could have been an equipment malfunction, crew scheduling, ground hold due to the tower, etc.... I don't see how this factors into things at all.
Overall, I think that there are a couple of glitches and 1 major problem - seat malfunction. AA's offer is fair, and your indictment of the whole "experience" seems a bit harsh.
Even airlines with high reputation for service like BA, CX, or SQ has days like this.
Dec 23, 2004, 9:35 am
#7
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2001
Location: South Bend, IN
Programs: AA EXP 3 MM; Marriott Bonvoy Lifetime Titanium Elite
Posts: 18,561
Originally Posted by Plato90s
Overall, I think that there are a couple of glitches and 1 major problem - seat malfunction. AA's offer is fair, and your indictment of the whole "experience" seems a bit harsh.
Dec 23, 2004, 9:54 am
#8
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: TUL Lifetime Plt AA 2.8m
Posts: 154
When an airline offers a premium priced product there is a need for them to put in the effort to deliver a premium service. That means a focus before taking off to ensure everything is in place and operating properly. If also means that they do not stock absolute minimal provisions to save money. Sometimes I think that AA considers all pax up front to be upgraded cheap tickets (ooops, mine are) and have walked away from competing, or offering a superior service.
Dec 23, 2004, 10:25 am
#9
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: USA
Programs: AA-CK, Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Lifetime Titanium
Posts: 1,449
It's a mechanical problem which isn't unique to AA and isn't indicative of anything else. Presumably it'll be fixed. It also only affected 1 person out of 2. I assume your seat was fine.
Certainly a ground staff problem, because the FA's certainly can't affect that.
Did AA under-provision the champagne or did your fellow passengers just drink a lot of it? You were sitting on the ground for over an hour, so did that affect how much people drank? Either way, AA could have done better.
This has nothing to do with the "business class experience". It could have been an equipment malfunction, crew scheduling, ground hold due to the tower, etc.... I don't see how this factors into things at all.
In my opinion, AA, on that night, did not provide a business class (as advertised) product to anyone in the cabin. Since it "cost" me two eVIP's that night, I feel that I am entitled to a refund for not delivering the product. Additionally, AA needs to understand that if it wants to charge more than 6k for a ticket, or whatever method used for upgrading, they need to provide a product competing at that level or they will loose the revenue business.
Dec 23, 2004, 10:39 am
#10
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 63,608
Originally Posted by MikeFly
In my opinion, AA, on that night, did not provide a business class (as advertised) product to anyone in the cabin. Since it "cost" me two eVIP's that night, I feel that I am entitled to a refund for not delivering the product. Additionally, AA needs to understand that if it wants to charge more than 6k for a ticket, or whatever method used for upgrading, they need to provide a product competing at that level or they will loose the revenue business.
Because that's what you're asking for - a complete refund. You are saying that AA's service was so distressingly bad that they should have provided the upgrade for free. I think that's more than a little greedy. The compensation offered is effectively about a 45% refund of what you paid to upgrade. That seems like quite a generous offer to me.
Dec 23, 2004, 12:04 pm
#11
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,748
Originally Posted by HKG_Flyer1
I wonder what happens when someone pays $6,151.05 (discounted business-- fare basis DR) or $7,008.05 (full business-- fare basis JR)?
It is too much of a self-serving rationalization to say this type of "compensation mooching" is to help AA do better for paid customers. I am seeing too many of these "flight was not perfect - can you believe what a paid customer would think of this? I think I deserve compensation".
I think we ought to realize that what we (as upgraders) get for our upgrades is "spare capacity" of a product that AA decides is what they want to (and are able to) offer for their paid premium customers. While we have earned these upgrades with our "loyalty", our contribution is not even close to allowing AA support a high-quality premium cabin. It is sheer delusion to believe hence that we have the ability to demand the quality that paid customers should be getting.
On the other hand, if you were indeed a premium-paying customer I would wonder what the heck you were doing flying AA.
Dec 23, 2004, 12:04 pm
#12
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: YYZ/MGA
Programs: AA 1MM Lifetime Gold, AA Platinum, WS Gold, Marriott Bonvoy Gold
Posts: 7,607
The mutually fair thing would be to leave J, go take a seat in Y, then say you got nothing and deserve a full refund. Getting 50%+ of the service means you don't get 100% of the refund.
Dec 23, 2004, 5:54 pm
#13
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Simpsonville, SC
Programs: Bonvoy - LIFETIME!!! Titanium ; AA - Platinum 2 Million Miler;
Posts: 491
When you buy a product in a department store and you find a problem with it, don't you return it to the store and ask for a FULL refund? If there is a tare in the pocket of a shirt, you don't receive a refund that is proportionate to the size of the tare, you receive a FULL refund.
In this passenger's experience, the service level and issues with the seat was not a true J product and deserves a FULL refund, not just for the portion that was wrong. Am I missing something here? What ever happened to standing behind your product?
Mike
In this passenger's experience, the service level and issues with the seat was not a true J product and deserves a FULL refund, not just for the portion that was wrong. Am I missing something here? What ever happened to standing behind your product?
Mike
Dec 23, 2004, 6:00 pm
#14
Join Date: May 2000
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posts: 1,960
Something a little strange about giving him back 30,000 miles too, as recompense for a wasted EVIP: Now, he not only has to add 20,000 miles to it (perhaps a 2/5 experience deserves a 3/5 refund) in order to upgrade on another flight, BUT NOW (courtesy AA) he has to cough up $500 too.
Well, I'd say stick it. They gave you 1+ free domestic trips, or perhaps a Caribbean trip, as the kicker. In no way do I consider 30K miles as comparable to even HALF of an EVIP anymore. Nice to have miles, but they in no way relate to the value you had expected and were denied, and hope to "experience next time".
Well, I'd say stick it. They gave you 1+ free domestic trips, or perhaps a Caribbean trip, as the kicker. In no way do I consider 30K miles as comparable to even HALF of an EVIP anymore. Nice to have miles, but they in no way relate to the value you had expected and were denied, and hope to "experience next time".
Dec 23, 2004, 6:11 pm
#15
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: SFO
Programs: AA PLT; UA Gold
Posts: 5,378
Originally Posted by FlyMeHomeAA
When you buy a product in a department store and you find a problem with it, don't you return it to the store and ask for a FULL refund? If there is a tare in the pocket of a shirt, you don't receive a refund that is proportionate to the size of the tare, you receive a FULL refund.
In this passenger's experience, the service level and issues with the seat was not a true J product and deserves a FULL refund, not just for the portion that was wrong. Am I missing something here? What ever happened to standing behind your product?
In this passenger's experience, the service level and issues with the seat was not a true J product and deserves a FULL refund, not just for the portion that was wrong. Am I missing something here? What ever happened to standing behind your product?