Apr 22, 2014, 10:16 am
Last edit by: JDiver
"...the collective bargaining agreement between AA and APFA has all of our answers. Here are relevant excerpts":
From Appendix ZZ, Letter I:
From Appendix ZZ, Letter II:
From Appendix ZZ, Letter VI:
From Appendix ZZ, Letter XI:
-from Dr. HFH, post #162
From Appendix ZZ, Letter I:
On domestic flights and on international flights of less than five (5) hours of scheduled flying time, if a passenger is either assigned or requests to move to a designated crew rest seat, the passenger's request will be accommodated.
On domestic flights and on international flights of five (5) hours or more but less than eight (8) hours scheduled flying time, if a passenger is either assigned or requests to move to a designated crew rest seat, prior to takeoff, the passenger's request will be accommodated. On such flights, after takeoff, a passenger who requests to move to a designated crew rest seat will be accommodated at the discretion of the Purser or Lead Flight Attendant.
On international flights of eight (8) hours or greater scheduled flying time, designated crew rest seat/bunks as set forth in Appendix I., Article 30.L. will be provided solely for the use of Flight Attendants.
On domestic flights and on international flights of five (5) hours or more but less than eight (8) hours scheduled flying time, if a passenger is either assigned or requests to move to a designated crew rest seat, prior to takeoff, the passenger's request will be accommodated. On such flights, after takeoff, a passenger who requests to move to a designated crew rest seat will be accommodated at the discretion of the Purser or Lead Flight Attendant.
On international flights of eight (8) hours or greater scheduled flying time, designated crew rest seat/bunks as set forth in Appendix I., Article 30.L. will be provided solely for the use of Flight Attendants.
From Appendix ZZ, Letter II:
The APFA agrees that the Company is not restricted from assigning any available seat according to its established Customer Service policies and procedures (including those established pursuant to paragraph 1. above). The APFA recognizes that a passenger should not be denied accommodation for a seat, nor should a Flight Attendant deny a request by a passenger to move into an open seat in order to retain a seat for Flight Attendant personal use for in-flight rest, except that, after takeoff, a passenger who requests to move to a designated crew rest seat will be accommodated at the discretion of the Purser or Lead Flight Attendant. Furthermore, the APFA agrees that Flight Attendants should not request Customer Service personnel to withhold seating from passengers beyond that which is provided by the Company's policies and procedures.
From Appendix ZZ, Letter VI:
In the event one (1) or more Bunks/Crew Rest Seats become unavailable for use due to a significant malfunction, the Company will provide substitute Crew Rest Seats as follows:
For flights eight (8) hours or more scheduled flying time but not exceeding twelve (12) hours scheduled flying time, one (1) regular Main Cabin passenger seat will be provided on a one-for-one basis for each Crew Rest Seat which is unusable.
For flights over twelve (12) hours scheduled flying time on 777 aircraft configured with bunks, one (1) regular Business Class passenger seat will be provided on a one-for-one basis for each Bunk which is unusable, if a Business Class passenger seat is available. Should a Business Class passenger seat be unavailable, a Main Cabin passenger seat will be made available.
For the purposes of this letter, “significant malfunction” will mean a lack of functionality. Examples of significant malfunctions will include: the crew rest seat has no recline or the seat cushion is missing or there is no oxygen access to a bunk/seat. Examples which do not constitute a significant malfunction include: a lack of a reading light or missing curtain or an inoperative footrest.
For flights eight (8) hours or more scheduled flying time but not exceeding twelve (12) hours scheduled flying time, one (1) regular Main Cabin passenger seat will be provided on a one-for-one basis for each Crew Rest Seat which is unusable.
For flights over twelve (12) hours scheduled flying time on 777 aircraft configured with bunks, one (1) regular Business Class passenger seat will be provided on a one-for-one basis for each Bunk which is unusable, if a Business Class passenger seat is available. Should a Business Class passenger seat be unavailable, a Main Cabin passenger seat will be made available.
For the purposes of this letter, “significant malfunction” will mean a lack of functionality. Examples of significant malfunctions will include: the crew rest seat has no recline or the seat cushion is missing or there is no oxygen access to a bunk/seat. Examples which do not constitute a significant malfunction include: a lack of a reading light or missing curtain or an inoperative footrest.
From Appendix ZZ, Letter XI:
During the interim period while the 767-300 aircraft is being modified to install the new crew rest seat accommodations, the Company will designate two (2) Main Cabin seats as crew rest seats in addition to the existing crew rest double.
FAs Sleeping in First - Revenue Pax w/ Broken Seat Denied Seat Change? EZE-JFK
Apr 9, 2014, 12:22 pm
#31
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Slackerville, FL USA
Posts: 1,844
I'm traveling now so bare with me, but before this thread gets out of hand let me just address and clear up a few things.
These were NOT non-revs, or dead heads or anything like that. It's exactly like frmj above described on his EZE-MIA flight. They were FA's who had conducted the cabin service (in fact she served my side dinner!) and then when were finished, decided to take a snooze in F. The reason we didn't make a scene about it was because we were half way through the flight when he realized his seat was broken and everyone by then was sleeping. The seat reclined but did not go fully flat.
I got the name of one of the FA's. To add insult to injury one of them sleeping in the seat was the purser. By the way they took seat 1A and 4A that I observed which I'm sure you would see should have been vacant. I wrote AA customer relations and shall see what they respond back. The more we have had time to think this one over, the more upset we really are about these circumstances.
These were NOT non-revs, or dead heads or anything like that. It's exactly like frmj above described on his EZE-MIA flight. They were FA's who had conducted the cabin service (in fact she served my side dinner!) and then when were finished, decided to take a snooze in F. The reason we didn't make a scene about it was because we were half way through the flight when he realized his seat was broken and everyone by then was sleeping. The seat reclined but did not go fully flat.
I got the name of one of the FA's. To add insult to injury one of them sleeping in the seat was the purser. By the way they took seat 1A and 4A that I observed which I'm sure you would see should have been vacant. I wrote AA customer relations and shall see what they respond back. The more we have had time to think this one over, the more upset we really are about these circumstances.
And where did you get the FA names from? Did someone look it up for you in reservations? That is a fireable offense. Nobody is supposed to share personal information obtained from sabre. We all had to sign off on that.
Apr 9, 2014, 12:30 pm
#32
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First of all what was wrong with the seat? The Flagship suite has levers located underneath that manually override the electrical system and enable the FA to swivel the seat, extend and retract the leg rest, and to recline and put up the seat back.
As for the crewmember giving up the seat: If it were indeed a working crewmember and there was an issue with the crew bunk that caused her to take a cabin seat then no, I don't think she should have given up her seat. Crew rest is an important part of the job while it may seem not so important to some people. I am not including you in the some people because you seem to get the difference between a bad crewmember and a crewmember with bad circumstances. There are both. If a revenue seat was broken would you expect a pilot to switch seats? While not flying the plane, a FA job is equally necessary to not be fatigued.
While there are some FAs who do not ever take a crew break there are some that really need it. It could be the difference between someone who has responsibilities that preclude them from sleeping all day before working an all night flight and someone who is a night owl and prefers to sleep all night. There are circumstances where I went to work that EZE flight and I needed that break or I felt I would pass out in the aisle and other nights where I felt I could go all night no problem. Even an hour break on that flight makes the world of difference.
As for the crewmember giving up the seat: If it were indeed a working crewmember and there was an issue with the crew bunk that caused her to take a cabin seat then no, I don't think she should have given up her seat. Crew rest is an important part of the job while it may seem not so important to some people. I am not including you in the some people because you seem to get the difference between a bad crewmember and a crewmember with bad circumstances. There are both. If a revenue seat was broken would you expect a pilot to switch seats? While not flying the plane, a FA job is equally necessary to not be fatigued.
While there are some FAs who do not ever take a crew break there are some that really need it. It could be the difference between someone who has responsibilities that preclude them from sleeping all day before working an all night flight and someone who is a night owl and prefers to sleep all night. There are circumstances where I went to work that EZE flight and I needed that break or I felt I would pass out in the aisle and other nights where I felt I could go all night no problem. Even an hour break on that flight makes the world of difference.
Apr 9, 2014, 12:51 pm
#33
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Slackerville, FL USA
Posts: 1,844
You could look at it that I am biased or you could look at it that I do it for a living and I can offer you a different perspective on what may or may not have occurred. Things are not always as they seem.
I am not an advocate of poor customer service or a fan of the FAs who make a habit of misrepresenting the company or their fellow crewmembers. I hate to see someone getting a bad rap for something that might be easily explained.
Having said that, I am NOT a fan of taking crew rest in the passenger cabin primarily because whenever you do you are subject to scrutiny. Someone is always looking at you and it is a very disturbing feeling to wake up and find someone looking at you when you are not at your best or noticing that your blanket has slipped and you may have shown a bunch of people more than they needed to see. Any time that a crew bunk issue dictates I have to sleep in the cabin is a dreaded moment.
Apr 9, 2014, 1:00 pm
#34
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Join Date: May 2001
Location: LAX; AA EXP, MM; HH Gold
Posts: 31,789
I can certainly see both sides of the "employees should trade seats when the customer's seat isn't working" issue. Not unlike off-duty employees ensuring that all F or J passengers have their first choice of entrée before making their selection. On the other hand, rest is essential for working crewmembers, and optional for passengers. Besides, I fall asleep sitting up all the time.
Apr 9, 2014, 1:01 pm
#35
Join Date: May 2006
Location: SAN
Programs: Lots of faux metal
Posts: 6,421
Did the FAs attempt to manually recline the seat for you? Any time you have a problem with your seat I encourage you to inform your flight attendant. Most of the time the reason the seats go out inoperative is because nobody informed the FA so he/she could report it to maintenance.
And where did you get the FA names from? Did someone look it up for you in reservations? That is a fireable offense. Nobody is supposed to share personal information obtained from sabre. We all had to sign off on that.
And where did you get the FA names from? Did someone look it up for you in reservations? That is a fireable offense. Nobody is supposed to share personal information obtained from sabre. We all had to sign off on that.
Apr 9, 2014, 1:02 pm
#36
Moderator: American AAdvantage
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Posts: 62,948
Thanks for the perspective, AAFA.
As a working crewmember I'd hate to be subjected to scrutiny too.
Most FAs I know (and I do know some as friends) would not advocate poor customer service, at least from my observations flying AA since the 1940s. A few IMO need reminding the customer base is their source of support and security ($) and it's a good idea to keep them reasonably well served.
I do know from others the "habitat" becomes uninhabitable at times - one of my FA friends told me about the
bedbug infestation in the crew bunks on one flight, and how it was written up for attention when it arrived back in ConUS. I'd certainly never object to FAs using unused seats for their rest period.
In this instance, the OP wrote AA, and they will investigate the issue properly, I believe. If the crew bunks were not usable, no fault, no foul. If they were, someone will hopefully get some counseling.
As a working crewmember I'd hate to be subjected to scrutiny too.
Most FAs I know (and I do know some as friends) would not advocate poor customer service, at least from my observations flying AA since the 1940s. A few IMO need reminding the customer base is their source of support and security ($) and it's a good idea to keep them reasonably well served.
I do know from others the "habitat" becomes uninhabitable at times - one of my FA friends told me about the
bedbug infestation in the crew bunks on one flight, and how it was written up for attention when it arrived back in ConUS. I'd certainly never object to FAs using unused seats for their rest period. In this instance, the OP wrote AA, and they will investigate the issue properly, I believe. If the crew bunks were not usable, no fault, no foul. If they were, someone will hopefully get some counseling.
Apr 9, 2014, 1:05 pm
#37
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Slackerville, FL USA
Posts: 1,844
Thanks for that. Hope the bunks aren't inop very often.
Agreed.
I can certainly see both sides of the "employees should trade seats when the customer's seat isn't working" issue. Not unlike off-duty employees ensuring that all F or J passengers have their first choice of entrée before making their selection. On the other hand, rest is essential for working crewmembers, and optional for passengers. Besides, I fall asleep sitting up all the time.
Agreed.
I can certainly see both sides of the "employees should trade seats when the customer's seat isn't working" issue. Not unlike off-duty employees ensuring that all F or J passengers have their first choice of entrée before making their selection. On the other hand, rest is essential for working crewmembers, and optional for passengers. Besides, I fall asleep sitting up all the time.
You're welcome.
Apr 9, 2014, 1:10 pm
#38
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Slackerville, FL USA
Posts: 1,844
Thanks for the perspective, AAFA.
As a working crewmember I'd hate to be subjected to scrutiny too.
Most FAs I know (and I do know some as friends) would not advocate poor customer service, at least from my observations flying AA since the 1940s. A few IMO need reminding the customer base is their source of support and security ($) and it's a good idea to keep them reasonably well served.
I do know from others the "habitat" becomes uninhabitable at times - one of my FA friends told me about the bedbug infestation in the crew bunks on one flight, and how it was written up for attention when it arrived back in ConUS. I'd certainly never object to FAs using unused seats for their rest period.
In this instance, the OP wrote AA, and they will investigate the issue properly, I believe. If the crew bunks were not usable, no fault, no foul. If they were, someone will hopefully get some counseling.
As a working crewmember I'd hate to be subjected to scrutiny too.
Most FAs I know (and I do know some as friends) would not advocate poor customer service, at least from my observations flying AA since the 1940s. A few IMO need reminding the customer base is their source of support and security ($) and it's a good idea to keep them reasonably well served.
I do know from others the "habitat" becomes uninhabitable at times - one of my FA friends told me about the
bedbug infestation in the crew bunks on one flight, and how it was written up for attention when it arrived back in ConUS. I'd certainly never object to FAs using unused seats for their rest period. In this instance, the OP wrote AA, and they will investigate the issue properly, I believe. If the crew bunks were not usable, no fault, no foul. If they were, someone will hopefully get some counseling.
Well, I was trying not to state that particular issue.
It is pretty gross. 
Yes, I guess they will see what happens from the letter.
We are trying to ensure that our new hires understand that there is sometimes a difference between procedure and passenger comfort. Particularly in the instance of overly loud boarding/deplaning music and cabin lights to bright for most of the flight. We have a pretty good crop of happy new people that we are all excited to see and we all hope they aren't being coached by some of our more disreputable members.
Apr 9, 2014, 1:14 pm
#39
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Slackerville, FL USA
Posts: 1,844
While it is available for any person looking through sabre some information is for personal use only and not to be shared with others. If that was the case, I was giving him/her the heads up that informing the company of that knowledge could leave someone open for disciplinary measures.
Apr 9, 2014, 1:26 pm
#40
Join Date: May 2006
Location: SAN
Programs: Lots of faux metal
Posts: 6,421
I got the name of one of the FA's. To add insult to injury one of them sleeping in the seat was the purser. By the way they took seat 1A and 4A that I observed which I'm sure you would see should have been vacant. I wrote AA customer relations and shall see what they respond back. The more we have had time to think this one over, the more upset we really are about these circumstances.
Not always. The way it was stated it appeared that some people have access to the system to see who was seated where and who was working where.
While it is available for any person looking through sabre some information is for personal use only and not to be shared with others. If that was the case, I was giving him/her the heads up that informing the company of that knowledge could leave someone open for disciplinary measures.
While it is available for any person looking through sabre some information is for personal use only and not to be shared with others. If that was the case, I was giving him/her the heads up that informing the company of that knowledge could leave someone open for disciplinary measures.
If the name he has was the purser wouldn't everyone on board the plane have it? Doesn't the purser usually do the pre-flight announcement and state their name? "I'm so-and-so and I will be the purser on our flight to JFK....
Apr 9, 2014, 1:41 pm
#41
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BINGO
Apr 9, 2014, 1:50 pm
#42
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 1,309
Sadly...
Okay, I worked at AA. Not in inflight, but flew non-rev enough to know what was going on on those 777s in F.
1) if a flight was not full - i.e., if F wasn't full of both paying passengers and any non-revs who happened to be lucky enough to be assigned an F seat, then the WORKING flight attendants would do whatever they can to ensure that the very first row was THEIRS.
2) They would use this for both rest during breaks and as a place to store bags.
3) If the flight attendants could, they'd have the gate agents reassign customers to ensure that they could have those seats open for their use (AGAIN - this is after accommodating all revenue customers as well as any non-revs)
4) This was not a contractual right, but rather something that just started happening.
5) FAs had other, smaller rest areas throughout the aircraft, but this was obviously preferred for the space and proximity to their work areas
6) If a flight was full (and I as a non-rev was on quite a few flights where First filled up with non-revs as well as paid pax), then the flight attendants would not be able to use those seats.
7) Normally, on an overnight, flight attendants or other employees would not be in uniform, they'd look just like other pax (I was management so I was always in khakis or slacks an a button down).
In this instance, the flight attendants SHOULD have given their seats up for paying pax.
1) if a flight was not full - i.e., if F wasn't full of both paying passengers and any non-revs who happened to be lucky enough to be assigned an F seat, then the WORKING flight attendants would do whatever they can to ensure that the very first row was THEIRS.
2) They would use this for both rest during breaks and as a place to store bags.
3) If the flight attendants could, they'd have the gate agents reassign customers to ensure that they could have those seats open for their use (AGAIN - this is after accommodating all revenue customers as well as any non-revs)
4) This was not a contractual right, but rather something that just started happening.
5) FAs had other, smaller rest areas throughout the aircraft, but this was obviously preferred for the space and proximity to their work areas
6) If a flight was full (and I as a non-rev was on quite a few flights where First filled up with non-revs as well as paid pax), then the flight attendants would not be able to use those seats.
7) Normally, on an overnight, flight attendants or other employees would not be in uniform, they'd look just like other pax (I was management so I was always in khakis or slacks an a button down).
In this instance, the flight attendants SHOULD have given their seats up for paying pax.
Apr 9, 2014, 1:52 pm
#43
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2001
Location: LAX; AA EXP, MM; HH Gold
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I have seen this in the EZE MIA route a while back. After serving meals, one of the attendants who was on duty took the seat across from me, made his bed and went to sleep till an hour or so before landing. It was a night flight and therefore understandable, but very different than Asian or Mid East carriers.
In my experience, they're hit or miss just like ordinary flight attendants. Mostly attentive and great service but sometimes lacking.
Apr 9, 2014, 2:17 pm
#44
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: DEN
Programs: Double OWE (AA EXP, QF Plat), FI Gold
Posts: 1,887
Not to go too off topic (I'm sorry!) but I thought SCL is a station that has APFA FAs? I've flown in/out more times than I can count, and I seem to remember having a conversation with a FA in J once about how there are always so many US-based FAs on those flights compared to EZE and LIM, and I thought she told me that SCL was an APFA station?
Apr 9, 2014, 2:26 pm
#45
Join Date: Oct 2007
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In contrast to the OPS experience, I was on an SQ 773 old 18 seater config from DXB-SIN in F. Had a legrest malfunction and on a full flight, a cockpit crew dead heading in Civvies was requested to move to my seat so I could have a fully functioning seat... SQ also gave me S$200 shopping voucher on their duty free as an apology for the inconvenience of needing to move midway through meal service after I had settled... It's this kind of attitude towards revenue generators that really hurts AA in the long run.