Dec 4, 2013, 10:33 am
Last edit by: JDiver
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THREAD LINKS FOR DOCUMENTED OR ANNOUNCED CHANGES:
USA AMEX Platinum Members Lose Access to Admirals Club/US Airways Lounges March 22, 2014 (4 Dec 2013; not genuinely merger related, but a significant change).
THREAD LINKS FOR DOCUMENTED OR ANNOUNCED CHANGES:
USA AMEX Platinum Members Lose Access to Admirals Club/US Airways Lounges March 22, 2014 (4 Dec 2013; not genuinely merger related, but a significant change).
MERGER: US and AA Dec 9 2013 implications for AA flyers (new)
Dec 5, 2013, 9:39 am
#196
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Austin, TX
Programs: AA LT Plat, UA 1k/1mm+, National EE, IC Plat, Bonvoy Gold
Posts: 2,605
Add to the fact AA's cost basis is once again going to increase dramatically, I don't see how this ends well.
"Five weeks from now, after an 8 percent pay raise, our hourly pay rates will be 12.3 percent higher than when AMR filed bankruptcy. In January 2015, we will receive another 3 percent raise followed by a January 2016 move to the average of pay rates at Delta and United, which we estimate to be another 15–16 percent improvement. With 3.5 percent raises in 2017 and 2018, our pay rates will be higher than those at Southwest, Delta and United, and our 777 captain rates will be 10–12 percent higher than the highest pay rates currently at FedEx and UPS."
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...nkruptcy.html/
"Five weeks from now, after an 8 percent pay raise, our hourly pay rates will be 12.3 percent higher than when AMR filed bankruptcy. In January 2015, we will receive another 3 percent raise followed by a January 2016 move to the average of pay rates at Delta and United, which we estimate to be another 15–16 percent improvement. With 3.5 percent raises in 2017 and 2018, our pay rates will be higher than those at Southwest, Delta and United, and our 777 captain rates will be 10–12 percent higher than the highest pay rates currently at FedEx and UPS."
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...nkruptcy.html/
My point is AA's costs are going to go up on multiple levels and the revenue which Parker & Co. have mentioned probably won't be able to increase at the rate at which costs will increase (of course, that's MHO).
Just how much is "total labor cost lower for PMAA"? Are you able to quantify it?
While freezing the pension, the pension is still a huge cost burden on AA.
Add eventual labor & management disputes, a faltering economy and I see "trouble".
Just how much is "total labor cost lower for PMAA"? Are you able to quantify it?
While freezing the pension, the pension is still a huge cost burden on AA.
Add eventual labor & management disputes, a faltering economy and I see "trouble".
Dec 5, 2013, 11:08 am
#197
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: RDU
Programs: HHonors Gold
Posts: 103
Apparently the leases are month-to-month, per this article.
Last edited by RDUpax; Dec 5, 2013 at 11:09 am Reason: Grammar, for the 101st time...
Dec 5, 2013, 12:47 pm
#198
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BWI
Programs: AA Gold, HH Diamond, National Emerald Executive, TSA Disparager Gold
Posts: 15,180
Dec 5, 2013, 8:09 pm
#199
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Anywhere I need to be.
Programs: OW Emerald, *A Gold, NEXUS, GE, ABTC/APEC, South Korea SES, eIACS, PP, Hyatt Diamond
Posts: 16,046
Lets hope this won't be as bad as the UA/CO debacle.
I sincerely hope I'm incorrect on all fronts. Nothing more would make me happy to see the new AA move in its current direction and improve upon it.
My concern is this is not what's going to happen in the future, especially with Parker running the show.
We'll see.
I sincerely hope I'm incorrect on all fronts. Nothing more would make me happy to see the new AA move in its current direction and improve upon it.
My concern is this is not what's going to happen in the future, especially with Parker running the show.
We'll see.
Dec 6, 2013, 5:14 am
#200
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: PHX & AGP
Programs: AA Lifetime PLT, Bonvoy Lifetime Titanium, Hilton Gold
Posts: 11,453
What you had COULD have been a miscater which does happen.
Dec 6, 2013, 6:02 am
#201
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: los angeles
Programs: Hyatt Courtesy card. Delta 2MM Diamond. AA platinum pro
Posts: 1,898
It wasn't a miscater. It was on the printed menu.
Dec 6, 2013, 6:24 am
#202
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Philadelphia
Programs: AA lifetime plat 2.5 million
Posts: 298
Here in Philly, we often thought that they changed to USAirways because the old name (Allegheny) was parodied as "Agony" Airlines. This was partly because they had a penchant for crashing into the mountains surrounding Pittsburgh.
In recent years, UScare seemed the best alternative.
Now, if they can only locate my bags from the flight 3 months ago where I checked them............
In recent years, UScare seemed the best alternative.
Now, if they can only locate my bags from the flight 3 months ago where I checked them............
Dec 6, 2013, 6:55 am
#203
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Programs: AA Advanatge
Posts: 474
Here in Philly, we often thought that they changed to USAirways because the old name (Allegheny) was parodied as "Agony" Airlines. This was partly because they had a penchant for crashing into the mountains surrounding Pittsburgh.
In recent years, UScare seemed the best alternative.
Now, if they can only locate my bags from the flight 3 months ago where I checked them............
In recent years, UScare seemed the best alternative.
Now, if they can only locate my bags from the flight 3 months ago where I checked them............
Cheers,
AA777
Dec 6, 2013, 7:23 am
#204
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2001
Location: LAX; AA EXP, MM; HH Gold
Posts: 31,789
AA's meals will be cheapened some, as is currently underway, and then, over time, US meals will be upgraded to the AA standard, and anyone who notices the reduction in AA's meals (and sees it on the printed menus) and has the audacity to speak out about it will be branded a liar.
Flyertalk doing what Flyertalk does best.
Dec 6, 2013, 7:26 am
#205
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: san antonio, texas
Programs: 3.2MM AA, 1.4MM UA,StwdLftPlt
Posts: 1,586
That is just stunning stuff. And I may point put that it doesn't even take into account the large equity payouts the pilots are about to get. This merger was engineered by the unions (largely the pilots) for the benefit of the unions. And just like the management they always vilified for "using AA as their personal piggy bank", they have gone ahead and are now doing the same thing. Zero respect for what the pilots in particular have done.
Yes. That and the AA cash that US desperately needed.
Except unlike UA and DL, AA will have much of the pmUS network that will be instantly unprofitable because the yields are not there to support the pay raises that pmUS employees are about to receive. That will be a huge drag relative to UA and DL.
APA has 10,000 members. USAPA adds another 5,000+. The USAPA are about to get raises between 18%-35% right out of the box. When you add that to the labor rate increases the AA pilots are getting, this will be costing the new AA hundreds of millions of dollars....for the pilots alone. That will more than wipe out any savings through synergies that DP is saying he can get. And I remain skeptical whether that number is realistic in the first place.
Yes. That and the AA cash that US desperately needed.
Except unlike UA and DL, AA will have much of the pmUS network that will be instantly unprofitable because the yields are not there to support the pay raises that pmUS employees are about to receive. That will be a huge drag relative to UA and DL.
APA has 10,000 members. USAPA adds another 5,000+. The USAPA are about to get raises between 18%-35% right out of the box. When you add that to the labor rate increases the AA pilots are getting, this will be costing the new AA hundreds of millions of dollars....for the pilots alone. That will more than wipe out any savings through synergies that DP is saying he can get. And I remain skeptical whether that number is realistic in the first place.
One item I don't understand about the US bankruptcy process is what party determines whether to continue funding pension obligations. Why have the majority of entrants, beginning with the pioneer Lorenzo, immediately sought to offload the plans to the PBGC while AA chose to freeze, but retain, their program? The influence of the unions in this particular case? Government indicating they had their fill of airline related cases?
Dec 6, 2013, 7:34 am
#206
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: New York and Vienna
Programs: PA WorldPass Platinum, AA, DL, LH. GHA Black, SPG and HHonors Gold
Posts: 3,870
American and US will slowly begin to align their product offerings, including meals, in-flight entertainment, and seating. The merged airline will use the current American product as its template and, as a result, the current US Airways product will be greatly enhanced to ensure uniformity across both airlines until they are merged under one operating certificate.
There are two additional key dates later in the year, according to people familiar with the matter. On April 1, US Airways will adopt American’s meal windows and catering, and on September 1, the US Airways soft product (i.e. in-flight service) will mirror American’s. Also by that date, new aircraft being delivered to US Airways will have the new AA interiors. A spokesman for US Airways would not comment specifically about these plans….
<SNIP>
There are two additional key dates later in the year, according to people familiar with the matter. On April 1, US Airways will adopt American’s meal windows and catering, and on September 1, the US Airways soft product (i.e. in-flight service) will mirror American’s. Also by that date, new aircraft being delivered to US Airways will have the new AA interiors. A spokesman for US Airways would not comment specifically about these plans….
<SNIP>
American Airlines: Challenges Ahead Include Merging Systems, Changing Alliances, and Aligning In-Flight Service
Dec 6, 2013, 9:32 am
#207
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: BOS-DCA
Programs: AA ExePlat
Posts: 217
I hate to (ok, it brings me some joy) interject facts into your US bashing, but AA has a 22% higher rate of baggage mishandling than US. AAEagle has a 2.8 times the rate of baggage mishandling than US.
The most recent data from DOT appears to be from September 2012.
The most recent data from DOT appears to be from September 2012.
Dec 6, 2013, 9:48 am
#208
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: West Michigan
Programs: DL, UA, AA, B6, BA (airline status-free leisure traveler), Hilton Diamond
Posts: 1,963
I am glad to see that the new AA is going to migrate more towards AA's product and service offerings. I hope that the same goes for the future frequency program, knowing how reasonable reward redemptions are on the current AA vs. the sparse availability found on the current US!!
Dec 6, 2013, 9:55 am
#209
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BWI
Programs: AA Gold, HH Diamond, National Emerald Executive, TSA Disparager Gold
Posts: 15,180
The cheapening has begun.
AA's meals will be cheapened some, as is currently underway, and then, over time, US meals will be upgraded to the AA standard, and anyone who notices the reduction in AA's meals (and sees it on the printed menus) and has the audacity to speak out about it will be branded a liar.
Flyertalk doing what Flyertalk does best.
AA's meals will be cheapened some, as is currently underway, and then, over time, US meals will be upgraded to the AA standard, and anyone who notices the reduction in AA's meals (and sees it on the printed menus) and has the audacity to speak out about it will be branded a liar.
Flyertalk doing what Flyertalk does best.
The question is whether the cheapening has anything to do with US or not. Given the current race to the bottom, especially in domestic F, I wouldn't be so quick to blame it on US. Yet to many AAers, US is Scrooge taking over the airline and going to completely ruin it, as US can do NOTHING good.
Please pardon the skepticism.
Dec 6, 2013, 11:52 am
#210
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: DFW
Programs: AA (ExPlat).DL,UA Hertz (Pres Circle); Avis (First), Hilton (Diamond), Marriott (Gold)
Posts: 452
Lots of stuff to speculate on under the "implications for AA flyers" umbrella. Here's what's on my mind...
Clubs - Probably no closures, except at airports where both have clubs. Reciprocal access should come fairly quickly. AA's complimentary F&B amenities are already quite meager so it's hard to see cutbacks in that area. It will be interesting to note whether the paid food model continues. I wonder how profitable it really is for AA. Membership fees for the US clubs are less than for the AC, and there is no $50 first year fee. It is hard to believe that this will be rationalized in any way other than to quickly raise the US fees to the AC level.
Note that the US club network generally has better food offerings (at least in their hubs of CLT, PHL, and PHX than AA, but US does charge for all booze, unlike AA which offers free house brands. Both offer complementary beer, wine. There are fewer US clubs than AA ones, but I generally like the US clubs better.
SWUs - Chairman's Preferred (CP), the US EXP equivalent, get 4 SWUs per year (2 for member and 2 for companions). EXPs get 8 and all can be used by the member or all by companions or some combination. US SWUs can be used to upgrade any fare to any destination, but will upgrade only a single segment. So any connecting segments must be upgraded via the normal complimentary upgrade process. Clearly if the combined airline moved to the US scheme EXPs would be far worse off. I certainly hope and expect that those earning EXP in 2014 will get 8 SWUs with the current T&Cs. If not, they had better make an announcement ASAP.
Mileage upgrades - US requires fewer miles for domestic upgrades (up to 10K each way versus AA's 15K) and waives copays for all elites. On its face, US appears to be far more generous than AA but capacity controls may be tighter. Mileage upgrades are almost always available on AA domestic routes if you book far enough in advance.
Elite upgrades - US provides complimentary upgrades to all elites. AA requires Golds and Plats to pay for upgrades with "stickers". This one has been, and will be, debated ad nauseum and I have no idea where it will end up. Upgrade windows open earlier on US (7 days for CP versus 100 hours for EXP, for example). In general, the ratio of F to Y seats is less favorable in the US fleet, but I would not expect them to change the ratios on the current AA planes.
I live in a non-US hub which is a major AA hub. I have about a 95% upgrade rate out of DFW to PHL, PHX, and CLT as a US Gold. better than my record as an AA Platinum.
Companion upgrades - Both airlines upgrade a companion on the same PNR at the same time as the elite member, except at the airport. No companion upgrades are possible from the airport list. That is unfortunate, but it may be a US system limitation that would go away when they move to the AA system.
Onboard meals - AA is the most generous of all carriers, US is probably the least generous. Meals in F only if the flight is at least 3.5 hours, otherwise just a snack basket. Moving the combined carrier closer to the US scheme is an obvious way to cut costs and I fear that is exactly what will happen in short order. Perhaps not as draconian as US, but something like the DL model (snack basket if < 900 miles, cold meal if < 1500 miles, hot meal if over 1500 miles). And say goodbye to warm nut
Parker has already said he's upgrading US to AA's service standards; meals should be the same by March, 2014.
Elite levels - US has a 75K level. I suspect the combined carrier will eventually have one too. If they make an interim attempt to provide reciprocal upgrades it will be interesting to see how they rank US Plats versus AA Plats.
MCE - US has no equivalent but the combined carrier will stick with the current MCE to be competitive with DL and UA.
Clubs - Probably no closures, except at airports where both have clubs. Reciprocal access should come fairly quickly. AA's complimentary F&B amenities are already quite meager so it's hard to see cutbacks in that area. It will be interesting to note whether the paid food model continues. I wonder how profitable it really is for AA. Membership fees for the US clubs are less than for the AC, and there is no $50 first year fee. It is hard to believe that this will be rationalized in any way other than to quickly raise the US fees to the AC level.
Note that the US club network generally has better food offerings (at least in their hubs of CLT, PHL, and PHX than AA, but US does charge for all booze, unlike AA which offers free house brands. Both offer complementary beer, wine. There are fewer US clubs than AA ones, but I generally like the US clubs better.
SWUs - Chairman's Preferred (CP), the US EXP equivalent, get 4 SWUs per year (2 for member and 2 for companions). EXPs get 8 and all can be used by the member or all by companions or some combination. US SWUs can be used to upgrade any fare to any destination, but will upgrade only a single segment. So any connecting segments must be upgraded via the normal complimentary upgrade process. Clearly if the combined airline moved to the US scheme EXPs would be far worse off. I certainly hope and expect that those earning EXP in 2014 will get 8 SWUs with the current T&Cs. If not, they had better make an announcement ASAP.
Mileage upgrades - US requires fewer miles for domestic upgrades (up to 10K each way versus AA's 15K) and waives copays for all elites. On its face, US appears to be far more generous than AA but capacity controls may be tighter. Mileage upgrades are almost always available on AA domestic routes if you book far enough in advance.
Elite upgrades - US provides complimentary upgrades to all elites. AA requires Golds and Plats to pay for upgrades with "stickers". This one has been, and will be, debated ad nauseum and I have no idea where it will end up. Upgrade windows open earlier on US (7 days for CP versus 100 hours for EXP, for example). In general, the ratio of F to Y seats is less favorable in the US fleet, but I would not expect them to change the ratios on the current AA planes.
I live in a non-US hub which is a major AA hub. I have about a 95% upgrade rate out of DFW to PHL, PHX, and CLT as a US Gold. better than my record as an AA Platinum.
Companion upgrades - Both airlines upgrade a companion on the same PNR at the same time as the elite member, except at the airport. No companion upgrades are possible from the airport list. That is unfortunate, but it may be a US system limitation that would go away when they move to the AA system.
Onboard meals - AA is the most generous of all carriers, US is probably the least generous. Meals in F only if the flight is at least 3.5 hours, otherwise just a snack basket. Moving the combined carrier closer to the US scheme is an obvious way to cut costs and I fear that is exactly what will happen in short order. Perhaps not as draconian as US, but something like the DL model (snack basket if < 900 miles, cold meal if < 1500 miles, hot meal if over 1500 miles). And say goodbye to warm nut
Parker has already said he's upgrading US to AA's service standards; meals should be the same by March, 2014.
Elite levels - US has a 75K level. I suspect the combined carrier will eventually have one too. If they make an interim attempt to provide reciprocal upgrades it will be interesting to see how they rank US Plats versus AA Plats.
MCE - US has no equivalent but the combined carrier will stick with the current MCE to be competitive with DL and UA.