MiAAmistew

Capetown,
Just a side note. We all go through extensive F.B.I. checks when hired...you have to account for every minute of your employment history. They called my high school, they verified my time in college, they called every employer I ever had that they could get their hands on. AA did everything but grab me by the ankles and shake me upside down. And if they find out during any moment of your employment that you wrote down false information on your application, you're gone. I don't know what classification the clearance is, but the background search and the search time is extensive. Pilots must take an extensive Psych exam, as well as Medical exams. It's not as easy as you make it out to be. One traffic ticket in your past, and they question it. They look at your credit history as well. So, I must respectfully disagree with your post that we do not have background checks.
With Respect,
MiAAmistew

FullFare

I still think the secret service agent will have a tough time convincing a jury that he has been wronged and suffered damages. Why didn't he appear on Matt/Katy this AM with his lawyer? Was he really and truly profiled? I believe part of the issue was that he was bringing a loaded gun on board and there has to be strict paperwork for that.

After 9/11 and the aftermath of world events in the past 3 months, I have no problem with flight crews profiling. That's not to say that they can just throw anyone they don't like off a plane. There is basically one major subset of humanity out there that has a monopoly on suicide for its "religious" beliefts, right now, and that is tough to deal with. These fanatics hate all of us Americans, call us "infidels" and shout "death to the non-believers". Really cool.

Until I see the leadership of Islam speak out and take a truly active role in thwarting the role of these fanatics, I do not begrudge the most vulnerable of us--airline flight crews--from profiling. The would-be "martyrs" have told us that there are more of their cells out there, ready to strike, and kill more of us by suicide, using our planes as bombs.

So, if this agent feels he was wronged because of his ethnicity, he and his lawyer should sue and go to court. That's what our country is all about. I'll bet he'll lose.

------------------
AAExecPlat; Lifetime AAirpass; 3MillMiles; UApremier-PassPlus

doc

ALPA Supports Full 'Captains' Authority' to Maintain Flight Safety
WASHINGTON, Jan. 4 /PRNewswire/ -- The Air Line Pilots Association, International (ALPA) takes issue with statements made today in the news media by the attorney representing the armed Secret Service agent who was denied boarding on American Flight 363. Although ALPA does not represent the American Airlines pilots, the Association is troubled by the assertion by the plaintiff's attorney that the American pilot should not have had the authority to deny boarding to the Secret Service agent.

ALPA's president, Capt Duane Woerth, said, ``ALPA believes that the captain of a flight must have full and final authority for all decisions relating to the safety of that flight. The captain is ultimately responsible for the safety of the aircraft and its passengers and crewmembers. I think most passengers would agree that the captain of a commercial airliner must have the final authority to deny boarding for legitimate reasons, such as in the case of Flight 363 where the agent apparently did not have the proper paperwork to allow him to carry a weapon onboard.''

Ironically, the FAA is on the verge of implementing a system that uses so- called

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/020104/dcf027_1.html

---

Yet what about each individuals rights?

It is the USA, right?

Mudcat

It will be interesting to see how this unfolds, but I would suggest that you read the AA statements with the appropriate filter.

http://www.amrcorp.com/news/january02/03_safety.htm

Of course, the statements are self serving, but I suppose what is most troubling is that they are indicative of the arrogance and rudeness that has taken over some in what is supposed to be a "service" industry. The agent was perhaps equally at fault, but who among us wouldn't get a little pissed off for being jerked around because of hypertechnical paperwork errors.

Read the account closely...and just imagine the pilot trying to find every reason possible for denying the guy boarding. Y'know if I forget to fill out a blank usually someone politely points out the error -- I am just amazed that it escalated to this.

Then again, it just seems that the airlines (and it is just not AA on this point) just want to treat us as cattle. So much for customer service.

stimpy

Fullfare, yours is one of the most racist posts I've seen in a while. You might want to tone it down a bit.

Maybe he has a job and can't just up and go on TV when Matt/Katy ask him?

Really un-cool post.

BarryO

Interesting attitude, and pretty sad IMHO.

Let me give another example: I have an elderly aunt and uncle, in their 70's. They live in Ireland, a place where very, very few people of African descent live.

In fact, they've had only one such interaction with such a person in their lives -- when they were visiting NYC a few years ago, an young African-American guy mugged them in Central Park, in broad daylight, and stole a couple of thousand dollars.

The result? They're both scared sh*tless of black people. A delivery man came to the door of my mom's house when they happened to be visiting, and they both almost had heart attacks.

Are their attitudes racist? Of course. What if they were on a plane and a young black guy sat down next to them. Suppose they complained to the crew that he made them feel "uncomfortable", and they would rather he be taken off the plane. Is that racist? But, what if they sited statistics that showed that young black males commit a disproportionate number of crimes (which they do, since many of them grow up in less than ideal environments)? What if they sited cases of individuals who said they hated white people, and wished them dead (also true, if miniscule in number).

Are they still displaying bigotry? Of course. So I ask, how is this different from those here who argue, 'Arab Americans just have to endure discrimination, since some Arabs have committed horrendous acts'?

BTW, two witnesses have said that the agent did not act unprofessional. This is beginning to sound like another example of a bigoted flight crew member telling the captain that they are "uncomfortable" with an individual of arab descent, the captain illegally abusing his authority in order to placate the crew member, and then a self-serving story being generated about paperwork problems or some such.

Let the lawsuits begin; looks like that's the only way this abuse of authority will stop.


[This message has been edited by BarryO (edited 01-05-2002).]

[This message has been edited by BarryO (edited 01-05-2002).]

doc

I'd be cautious about making too many gross generalizations, FullFare!

We want to solve the problem - not make it worse!

clbish

I have a simple question. I am sorry if it has been asked before, but would like any pilot on the boards to answer.

If there is going to be an armed person such as a police office or such, do they not inform the pilot? I would hope they would in advance to boarding the aircraft. If they don't they should start.

MiAAmistew

clbish,
I'm not a pilot, I'm a flight attendant, but I can answer your question. The pilots and the flight attendants know when an armed passenger is boarded. We get paperwork titled "Notification of Armed Passenger". The armed passengers are boarded first. If there is more than one, they are introduced to each other and the entire crew knows who they are and where they are sitting.
MiAAmistew

Plato90s

Before you give too much credence to these 2 witnesses, do you know the circumstances?

One of them was the pax seated across the row. He didn't see the entire episode with the police/captain because he was still in the plane cabin. He only saw the agent BEFORE the incident.

The 2nd witness was in the gate area AFTER the incident. She wasn't on the flight in question, but was on a later flight. This was after the agent already talked to his supervisor and the captain already made the final decision to eject him.

So the two witnesses for the agent come before the confrontation and after the confrontation. No one who was actually part of the confrontation [gate agent or police officer] has come forward to support the SS agent.

These witnesses add very little to his defense.

acvitale

I see and the fact that AA changed the story three times now and the witnesses and police back the USSS agent story and not the pilot still hold no relevence in your mind...

Nothing personal AA is making up the lies as they go... When it gets to court they are gonna lose.. Witnesses and evidence say AA is full of Bullsh*t!

glenngpr

I must admit that I understand FullFare's point of view. We all must admit that we give a second and third look to any passenger with a Middle Eastern appearance. It's only natural..it was Arabs who attacked the United States. Does that mean that every Arab is a terrorist, of course not. But we know that the terrorists are not Swedes, Koreans, or Costa Ricans.

If I was a passenger on that BWI-DFW flight, I'd want my pilot to make **** sure that he was comfortable with who was on board. Did he make a mistake, perhaps. This is profiling, but like it or not, it's a new unfortunately a new world out there. I'll cut AA some slack on this one.

Plato90s

Change the story? In what way?

AA never even had a story until the pilot and SOC manager's statements were released. What has been changing are the stories that the newspaper media have been putting out.

Why are you blaming AA for what a bunch of reporters wrote up? Show me a press release or any article which actually quotes an AA spokeman making incorrect statements or a changing story. You won't find any because it doesn't exist.

Finally, let's be completely clear. This is direct from CNN.com

Both of the "witnesses" admit they didn't see any part of the confrontation. That's why their testimony is irrelevant.

doc

The chief executive of American Airlines, Don Carty, has backed a pilot's decision to remove an armed Arab-American Secret Service agent from a Christmas Day flight at the Baltimore-Washington International Airport.

http://news.airwise.com/stories/2002/01/1010401872.html

stimpy

Glenn, heck no! I work with Arabs and visit the Middle East occasionally and I don't think of them as any different than any other race. As BarryO said, blacks give some people fright too. Every race has evil people and there is no reason other than hysteria to profile Arabs on airplanes.

If you give second and third looks to Arab pax, then you are showing your fear (and just a bit of ignorance). But do not make the assumption that the rest of us are as afraid as you are.