robinhood

FlyAAway, there are a few things I find exceedingly disturbing about your most recent posts.

1.) You suggest that if people don't conform to "your" culture, they are disrespecting this country. How well did the first European immigrants conform to the culture of the Native Americans? The truth is, this country is a nation of immigrants. Some people like you have difficulty accepting that diversity of culture makes us a stronger, more informed, more amazing nation. This is what sets us apart from any other country in the world. How can you say that just because some Americans wear certain clothes that they are any less American? How can you say that just because some people customarily eat chapatis, or lavash bread, or tortillas instead of white bread that they are somehow un-American, disloyal, disrespectful? It is outrageous that you can imply that anyone who doesn't look like you, behave like you, or talk like you is less of an American.

2.) You say "how dare you...criticize the way our country is responding to the situation." I can't imagine a more thoroughly thuggish way of implying that the First Amendment doesn't apply to anyone who doesn't agree with you. Good policy can only come from vociferous debate, not sycophantic acquiescence to whatever the powers that be decide is "best for us." To try to muzzle people with whom you disagree by suggesting they are less loyal than you, less American than you, less patriotic than you smacks of the worst of McCarthyism.

3.) To revisit one of the worst injustices ever perpetrated by the United States upon its own citizens and suggest that it may actually have been justified is stunning. It took us nearly half a century to see through the paranoia and racism, and to recognize that shameful act for what it truly was. And now you want us to undo 50 years of progress in civil rights? Will that be the true legacy of this terrible tragedy? And to compare what we are seeing to the Japanese internment camps is NOT a stretch. The latest CNN poll shows a horrifying 31% of Americans agreeing that Arab-Americans should be placed in detention camps. THIS is the level of hate we are dealing with.

If it truly were reasonable, or just, or fair to treat an entire group of people as terrorists just because some terrorists happen to be of the same race, why don't you call for treating white people like Timothy McVeigh? Why the double standard?

I think your problem is that you don't recognize that white Christians are NOT the face of America. We are white, we are black, we are every color under the sun. We are Christian, we are Muslim, we are Buddhist, we are Hindu, we are Jewish. But each and every one of us, no matter how we dress, how we eat, how we look, how we worship, has just as many rights as you do, is just as loyal to this country as you are, and is just as American. To treat ANY American as any less than that is a travesty, and an insult to the bedrock principles that this country was founded on and will continue to believe in through the good times and the bad. Terrorists can destroy buildings and kill people -- but only our submission to paranoia, intolerance, discrimination, and prejudice can destroy our nation.


[This message has been edited by robinhood (edited 09-30-2001).]

hindukid

I find it interesting how most Americans give immigrants credit for being just as American as everyone else. As a 25 year old of Indian origin, I was born and raised and this country and consider myself to be as American as everyone else. I know a lot of people who have immigrated from India, and I would say that for the most part most of them come to the USA for economic opportunities. For some the cultural/social ideals of the US grows on them, for some it does not. I would say that there are plenty of Indian immigrants who would move back to India in a second if they had the same economic opportunities. Most of you would probably be very surprised at much opposition an American born indian girl will receive if she wants to marry a white guy. I'm not saying that every immigrant is just using America for economic reasons, but I would bet that there are more than you believe. I will say that just about every indian person I know, born in this country thinks of themselves as an American, and that most who have been here for many years also consider themselves American. But there are many who hope to make money here, save up and then go back to India. I would say that these people are generally those who are eligible for citizenship and don't act on it. Most people I know, don't agree with me, but I never understood how America allows people to live here for 30 years and never become citizens. To me, becoming a citizen is a way of declaring an allegiance to America. I never understood how someone can use America for all of its opportunities and never decalre that allegiance. I should say however that whether a person is an American, an Indian, A muslim or whatever. I am sure that almost everyone is outraged by the vents of 9/11. I am sure that muslims here, even if they do not consider themselves Americans are still outraged. As such they do not deserve any discrimination or hatred. They were not the one's resonsible. As far as security goes, if a person can get past security then I'm sure that they are fine to fly. Any airline caving into to fears of its staff is crazy. If you don't feel safe flying with muslims, then don't fly. You can't discriminate against a 1000 innocent people, because of 1 bad apple. It is an American ideal not to discriminate against people, even if statistics say otherwise. Statistics can easily show that a black male on the street at night is much more likely to commit a crime than anyone else. Does it mean that all black males are criminals? No. Does it mean that we should keep black males off the street? Of course not. You can't discriminate against all blacks for the actions of few, and the same applies to muslims. Airlines can claim whatever they want, but if were on a jury, anyone kicked off a plane because of his racew would be receiving a lot of money. Just my 2 cents.

Flyaway

Posted by FlyAAway:

"It might be no different, it might be very different. Are you of Arab origin? If so, perhaps you can shed some light.

When traveling in the Middle East, which I have done often and recently, I am extremely circumspect. I am not demanding or obnoxious, nor do I assume that anyone owes me anything including courtesy. There are facets of Arabic culture that I do not subscribe to or am philosophically opposed to, still I am respectful.

Respect is at the heart of my argument(s). People come to this country from all over the world, and expect their culture to take top billing over mine. I have friends from Sri Lanka who have been here for over 35 years and still dress as they did in their homeland. Why is that? Of course they are free to do as they please. I am free to think it a bit odd.

Oh, and they are Sri Lankan-Americans. Not Americans; Sri Lankan-Americans. I wonder how many American-Sri Lankans I could locate in Colombo? I think the entire concept is disrespectful. If everything about your country and culture are so wonderful, why ever did you leave? The level of tolerance toward this attitude is found nowhere else that I have traveled."

---------
From your post above, am I wrong in assuming that you have never LIVED in any other country than the U.S.?

SJC2ISP

It is time that White America wakes up to the fact that a lot of non-whites also call America home. They have the same rights as the whites. The whole basis of modern democratic civilization is the right of the individual. The communists put the good of many over the the good of an individual. We will be taking a giant leap back of the right of individuals are trampled upon becauss of their affiliation with a particular race/group/ethenicity etc.

Discrimination based on race/ethenicity is of the worst kind since that is something each individual is born with and something he or she cannot change. It is an attack on the heart of the moral fabric on which our entire civilization is based on; a victory for the thoughts and barbarianism represented by the fanatics.

Coming back to reality: As a South Asian, I am willing to accept extra scrutiny or checks because of my racial origin. However, I expect the same decency and respect from the law-officer as would have been due to any other (white) American. What I will not accept, is the use of the attack as a license for overt racism and expression of bigotry.

I was shocked to B747s post on Delta forum about profiling at JFK. It is one thing to have greater scrutiny; another thing to openly harras and humilate an individual. Ironically, it was the Border Patrol officers who harrased him. These I presume are the same people who allowed people with known connections to terrorists to enter the US and overstay their visas to commit their acts. I guess they want to cover up their incompetency by humilating olive-skinned people.

[This message has been edited by SJC2ISP (edited 09-30-2001).]

FlyAAway

LIVED? My assignments have been from 30-45 days. There have been a number of them. I have never claimed long-term residency. Your point, sir?

I am presently a volunteer for a civilian posting in the United Arab Emirates. The assignment would be 24-36 months.

FlyAAway

Do you really mean that? I just read the origninal post again. We are reading one side of the story. I don't think anyone wants to see this type of incident become a way of life; I don't. However, in light of recent events, how can you turn a blind eye? What if you were stashing something other than flight coupons in your bag? The man who wrote the story should realize it is also affecting his own safety.

How do you quantify a "hateful stare"?

You can't tell by looking at a Middle Easterner that they are a terrorist, but you can sit at the terminal in Palm Springs and know which (presumably) white people hate you? Come on!

I am glad people are being vigilant. And it does not matter what color they are. I said it earlier; if someone thinks I am a threat, based upon credible evidence, I am happy to put up with the chore of proving I am not. And, I would not feel violated. If it prevents one more innocent from a premature demise, I believe it is the right thing to do. Perhaps not the preferred, or ideal thing to do, but the prudent and right thing under the circumstances.

FlyAAway

robinhood! I wonder if we can disagree without being disagreeable? I implored you to strip away the emotion, but you seemed to not notice. You deserve a response, so here goes. The point I was trying to make is this, why can't immigrants attempt to blend in? If you had the opportunity and privelege to move to Paris, France, after 35 years would you look (in terms of dress) more French, or more American. Would you continue to eat Wonder bread (probably not available) or would you eat croissants and baguettes? My friends eat curry every day! I like curry, but not daily. If I moved to Colombo, I would likely enjoy steak and potatoes (given availability), but not every day.

2.) You say "how dare you...criticize the way our country is responding to the situation." I can't imagine a more thoroughly thuggish way of implying that the First Amendment doesn't apply to anyone who doesn't agree with you. Good policy can only come from vociferous debate, not sycophantic acquiescence to whatever the powers that be decide is "best for us." To try to muzzle people with whom you disagree by suggesting they are less loyal than you, less American than you, less patriotic than you smacks of the worst of McCarthyism.

I have yet to call you a name, but now I am a thug? A McCarthyist? Whom have I muzzled? You might also consider that bad policy could result from the same vociferous debate. This very bulletin board in general, and this thread in particular, would lead me to believe our first amendment rights are alive and flourishing. And it seems that most disagree with me. I am not threatened by that, nor does it fill me with the rage that permeates your posts.

3.) To revisit one of the worst injustices ever perpetrated by the United States upon its own citizens and suggest that it may actually have been justified is stunning. It took us nearly half a century to see through the paranoia and racism, and to recognize that shameful act for what it truly was. And now you want us to undo 50 years of progress in civil rights? Will that be the true legacy of this terrible tragedy? And to compare what we are seeing to the Japanese internment camps is NOT a stretch. The latest CNN poll shows a horrifying 31% of Americans agreeing that Arab-Americans should be placed in detention camps. THIS is the level of hate we are dealing with.

I did not say I wanted to reverse 50 years of civil rights progress. Not everyone shares your view that the civil rights movement always resulted in progress. If your father, brother, or son was killed at the hands of a Japanese pilot, do you want the Japanese running up and down your street?
It was regretable, but what was the alternative?

If it truly were reasonable, or just, or fair to treat an entire group of people as terrorists just because some terrorists happen to be of the same race, why don't you call for treating white people like Timothy McVeigh? Why the double standard?

I have no qualms with tighter controls on truck rentals, fertilize and ammonia purchases, particularly if it prevents another OK City tragedy

I think your problem is that you don't recognize that white Christians are NOT the face of America. We are white, we are black, we are every color under the sun. We are Christian, we are Muslim, we are Buddhist, we are Hindu, we are Jewish. But each and every one of us, no matter how we dress, how we eat, how we look, how we worship, has just as many rights as you do, is just as loyal to this country as you are, and is just as American. To treat ANY American as any less than that is a travesty, and an insult to the bedrock principles that this country was founded on and will continue to believe in through the good times and the bad. Terrorists can destroy buildings and kill people -- but only our submission to paranoia, intolerance, discrimination, and prejudice can destroy our nation.

You will depend on a lot of white, male, Christians to defend you. Be polite and thank them, even if they are not the face of America.


[This message has been edited by robinhood (edited 09-30-2001).][/B][/QUOTE]

robinhood

FlyAAway -- if my posts seem to you disagreeable or permeated with "rage," I apologize for that. But I continue to be stunned by your opinions.

The point I'm trying to make is, why SHOULD immigrants attempt to "blend in"? Whether I choose to eat Wonder bread or croissants and baguettes is my freedom and my choice, and frankly none of your or society's business. We boast about living in the land of the free -- and yet you think all Americans should be compelled to look, eat, dress, and talk exactly like you. To imagine that just because someone prefers croissants to Wonder bread or rugby to baseball that their loyalty and "American-ness" should be questioned is mind-boggling. American culture is not equivalent to white, Christian culture. What makes American culture beautiful is that it is a hodgepodge of different cultures that come from our great diversity. I don't know what you're intending to imply, but you make it sound like people who don't look or behave "normal" (read: like you) aren't true Americans, which is simply false.

You say that you don't want to reverse half a decade of progress in civil rights. Yet your attempts to justify the Japanese internment camps speak otherwise. You ask whether I would want "the Japanese" running up and down the street if my father, brother, etc. were killed at Pearl Harbor. But again you fail to make the appropriate distinctions. "The Japanese" that you suggest were "running up and down your street" were AMERICANS. They were born in the same hospitals, played on the same playgrounds, went to the same schools, recited the Pledge of Allegiance like anyone else. They were active members of their communities: they were doctors, teachers, farmers, shopkeepers, police officers. They were just as American as anyone else. How can you say that they were LESS American and had FEWER rights simply because they physically resembled the group of people who perpetrated Pearl Harbor?

I am, like all Americans, immensely grateful to the American soldiers and sailors of all races and religions who will soon be called upon to defend the freedom of our nation. But what is it that you and your fellow soldiers will be defending if before the first shot is fired millions of our own citizens are thrown in detention camps? How can we defend freedom when we willingly throw it in the garbage ourselves? Now, when 31% of the country wants to repeat one of the worst stains on American history, it is the responsibility of every one of us to defend freedom for ALL Americans. Not just Americans who look like us.

SJC2ISP

FlyAAway:

You mentioend that your sri Lankan friends eat curry everyday. What is wrong with that? With the amount of flying you do , you surely would have visited London. There most big grocery stores sell Indian food like we sell salads and meats, or rotesserie (sp?) chicken. Even in the US many stores sell Chinese meals. If Chinese is OK why not curry?

I am sure your Sri Lankan friend also occassionly eats Steak (unless he is vegetarian) and Potato. But when he has a choice, he would like to have the food which he or she likes. This is a fundamental right which is sacrosant to the very spirit of America. The way our system works, if there are enough people willing to eat curry daily, establishments will open to cater to them. That is what makes our country great.


In your posts I see an latent expectation that all Americans need to pay respect to the "White Christian" way of life. Whether it is the way you dress or the way you eat, or be thankful that a lot of soldiers who defend America are white Christians (From what I know, Blacks and Latinos make a lot more of the US Armed forces than the percentage population). There is an expectation that White Americans are more American than the Indian,Latino,Chinese or Black American.

As an Indian American, my loyalty lie towards the values that make America great. These values are not something which you are born with (unlike ethenicity); these are values which you adopt and imbibe. And White Americans do not own the patent/copyright to these. These values are universal and all democracies in the world strive towards them.

Pferde

FlyAAway, when I first read through all of your posts I was astounded, then I cried--- I couldn't believe what I was reading. They say travel broadens the mind, but it appears you travel a lot.

Since you've taken so much time to write these posts I can only assume you are sincere.

Flyaway

In the words of Bob Marley;

"One love, one heart, let's get together and feel alright."

FlyAAway

To All:

I have read, and re-read all of your posts. Through all of the give and take, I believe that I may have communicated poorly, but I tried to be reasonable, and forthright. There has always been an attempt to respect the person, even where I could not respect the viewpoint. It is my desire to try to clarify some of what has been said.

To the person who cried after reading my post, I am genuinely sorry. That was never the intent.

I don’t hold hatred for any race, or religion. On the other hand, it is difficult not to hate the acts of those who killed in the name of religion. I don’t want to create a sub-class of citizens. Those who abused their citizenship, or overstayed their visas to do harm on our soil, are in a sub-class that is lower than the animals.

Some of your viewpoints are as astounding to me, as mine are to the overwhelming majority whom have posted here. I wish ill will toward none of my critics.

I attempted to answer most of the posts and even e-mailed “Dudster.” I felt that he had left some things unsaid. It was my desire to tell him about me and allow him to make his judgements, at least partially, upon facts. He has yet to respond. I still wish he would.

It is still baffling to me how so many can implore my tolerance and acceptance of whomever and whatever comes along, yet it seems to be the prevailing opinion that my so-called “white-male-Christian” culture ought to be dismissed out of hand. Where is your sense of reciprocity?

As I stated earlier, I have friends in many lands, which celebrate many different cultures, and worship in many different religions. I have been welcomed in their homes, and my family has reciprocated. I actually do play well with others. What is the immigrant’s obligation to his adopted country? Is there no expectation that they would assimilate? Not even a little bit? Ever?

I find it a little curious that some of my more pointed questions went unanswered. May I repeat them?

Have YOU served your country? Honestly, for those who have, I think it adds weight to their arguments.

Have you flown in harm’s way; been shot at; or, flown within the threat-ring of an air-to-ground missile? I think this clarifies your level of commitment to this country and it’s ideals.

I did not ask previously, but do you vote at EVERY opportunity? I think this indicates how much you value this country and it’s ideals.

Regarding Mr. McVeigh. He was a good man who went bad. Very bad. At one point, he was a decorated combat veteran. Why he turned is anyone’s guess. I think the analogy is flawed. He and his accomplice(s) were very few in number. He did not direct a worldwide network like al Qaeda. Timothy was wrong in every way, but the comparison just does not wash. Again, if any segment of the population would feel better if I (and all white-Christians) submitted to a background investigation prior to renting the Ryder truck, so be it. I won’t feel violated, as I have nothing to hide.

Regarding the arrival of the immigrants and the so-called Native Americans. Did the Indians always act honorably? Did they? If you believe they did, then don’t accuse others of lazy investigation. I can say for certain that my immediate family had no part in what happened to them. With less certainty, I can say my extended family, had no part in it. Irish immigrants from which I descended had a rough lot at times and may have even suffered discrimination. No one owes me an apology for that. I did not suffer, nor did my father. Does the mongoose apologize to the cobra? Does the cheetah apologize to the impala? The victim mentality escapes me. Adapt. Hide better, turn more quickly, or run faster. Life is not fair.

Finally, this thread was named AA racial discrimination . I do not think that this is a racial issue. It is a security issue. American Airlines has been through more than most of us can comprehend. I know dozens of American employees on a personal basis. As I stated earlier, we have only heard one side of the story. Any fair person will acknowledge there is another side. I have difficulty believing that the employees involved are racist (go ahead, look up the word) or that they acted with malice.

Through all of my reading of these posts, no one has presented me with a convincing argument, or solution, that will assure that recent events are not repeated. To the person who said they were willing to be flown into the side of a building, I don’t believe you. It is scarcely possible, but try to put yourself in the place of those people. Some, maybe most, had to know their fate. Imagine a child, on the way to Disneyland. The horror is unspeakable. If you can get through those thoughts without changing your mind, you may need professional help.

It may soon be my lot to do my part to defend each of you. It will be my pleasure. It may be unpleasant; I may not return, but I do believe in America. I will pray for each of you, and hope you can do the same for me.

God Bless America and Godspeed

benoit

Breaking news,

A HAND-PICKED team of 14 young Muslims who were trained to fly Boeing jets in secret at an airbase in Afghanistan are believed to be hiding in Europe and America using fake passports and identities.
Seven of the team are known to speak fluent English and left Afghanistan more than a year ago with enough flying skill to stage further suicide attacks. Security services worldwide, already overwhelmed by the hunt for “sleepers” that Osama bin Laden has in place, have been told to track down these 14 men.

see this link:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,...340243,00.html

SJC2ISP

Nobody is dismissing white male culture. However I am not sure what your expectation of assimilation or reciprocity is? I presume the immigrants you deal with (your Sri Lankan pal) dress in Western attire, speak English and do talk about somethings American (sports, politics & movies/pop-culture) like others around him. Is that enough? Or does he also have to eat Steak and Potata or go to Church to prove that he is American?

Many people can not develop a taste for other foods, part of it may be socio-culture (no meat, no pork, no beef, no non-kosher); part of it is plain personal choice. In my family, I eat everything from burgers & steaks to sushi and chow; others are not able to develop a taste for the more bland American food and given a choice would prefer hot curry over American food anyday.
What I find hard to understand is that why is this being viewed as a lack of willingness to assimilate or be American? Do you have to eat Steak and Fries to prove that you respect American culture? Why should American culture be defined by Steak & Potatoes? Culture is always evolving; it is not something static. If Fish&Chips were the staple in Britain a generation ago; curry is being called the national dish today. If by some stroke of destiny if curry becomes as popular in the US as it is in UK, will America become less American?

As I wrote in my earlier post, there seems to be a latent or unacknowledged expectation in your posts that every immigrant needs to pay homage to the "white christian male" in order to prove his allegiance to America. I respectfully disagree. It is one thing to dress and speak American or to obey laws and respect other individuals or to do your civic duties as a resident; it is another to expect people to eat what they do not like or pray where they do not want to.
I respect and honor the risks you take to protect our freedom. However, that does not give you any more right than an individual who is not on the frontline. I may not have dodged the SAM, but I wrote software that enable the design of the chips which went into the ECM pods on your aircraft which perhaps enabled you to avoid the SAM and come home to engage in this discussion.
You made a conscious decision to serve your country by flying. Not everyone can have that chance; I do wish you get your due respect( and a proper salary). I would pray for your safety if you ever got into harm's way. BUT, it is still one man, one vote. After all isnt that the ideals you are fighting for?

BTW: On a percentage basis black and perhaps hispanic Americans are represented in more numbers in the US armed forces than their population. Does that give them a bigger share for defining what an immigrant should do to prove his/her allegiance.

Quote:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"> FlyAAway wrote
I did not ask previously, but do you vote at EVERY opportunity? I think this indicates how much you value this country and it’s ideals.

Good point. Something which always bothers me since Americans tend to take their rights for granted. I hear that typical turnout in US elections is 30%; it is often 60-70% in India.

You mentioned that this discussion is about racism on AA and how nobody is answering your questions on how to do it. Do you believe that off-loading people is the correct way to go?

It is one thing to do a thorough screening and profiling. As an Indian, I do not mind being asked for my ID, searched and patted, or asked a few questions at the security check. I completely undertand why I am being quizzed. However I expect to be shown the same decency and respect as what a White American would get.

What I would never tolerate is that after I pass all the metrics and profiling I am off-loaded because some FA or passenger is becoming "uncomfortable". How would you feel if you were off-loaded because as an airman you could potentially fly a plane and hence be capable of flying it into a building? Like you McVeigh was a veteran who used his skills to blow up a building; why should I trust you to sit in the plane with me, Mr. FlyAAway, when I know that you can fly the plane into a building? How do I know that you are not a "Turner Diary" fan or a part of the 100s of anti-govt. militias patronized by the McVeighs. From what I heard, there was some sympathy for McVeigh's cause in these militias (not unlike the dancing Palestenians (sic) we all saw on TV).

What we need is a mechanism where our immigration laws are properly enforced. People who come on temporary visas should be required to update their addresses every month. INS could require them to physically appear at a designated center (International Students Office at a University if a student), the local police station for a foreign worker every six months to get their documents and location verified. I believe almost all the people involved in the 9-11 attack had violated INS laws. A better more organized system would have flagged them and pehaps prevented the tragedy.

Off-loading olive skin people will not solve the problem or reduce the risks.

[This message has been edited by SJC2ISP (edited 10-01-2001).]

[This message has been edited by SJC2ISP (edited 10-01-2001).]

benoit

Michael Kinsley speaks out on racial profiling at airports:

http://slate.msn.com/Readme/01-09-28/Readme.asp