SK

I think that if someone does not feel comfortable/safe with flying in a specific flight, for whatever reason - including not feeling comfortable with a fellow passenger, he should ask that he himself (or she, as the case may be) should be reassigned to a different flight. That's the civilized thing to do. Not ask that the other passenger be kicked out. Otherwise the airline should do that: offer the person who complains a different flight.

FlyAAway

I am appalled by what I am reading in this thread.

Many of those who have posted ought to pick up a dictionary and review the meaning of the following words:

1)Prejudice
2)Discrimination
3)Bias

There is clearly some confusion.

Why is it that people automatically associate malicious intent to these words?

The way Arabs in this country are being treated may be painful, but it is not wrong and certainly not predjudicial. We were attacked my a number of persons of Arab origin. They hated us and all we stand for. They are in fact our sworn enemies. Treating them as if they were normal, law-abiding citizens with a proven record of allegiance is not only inappropriate at this time, but perhaps even treasonous.

Allowing people to enter this country, and to promote any agenda they please, with impunity and precious little to no oversight is what placed us in this predicament to begin with.

We are at war; war is hell. We don't owe these people anything, let alone an apology. Maybe there is a better deal waiting for them in their country of origin.

Paranoia is probably the survival tactic that serves one best in a time of war.

It would be splendid to love everybody and trust everybody, but it is painfully apparent that we are way past that.

I will soon have the honor to defend our freedom, and our constitution. My oath still contains the words "against all enemies, foreign and domestic."

For such a well-travelled group, I just can't believe what I read here. Try leaving Rome with a one-way ticket. You are going to be asked some tough questions and civility won't be a factor. There will be militia in close proximity with loaded automatic weapons. It is Italy; that is how they choose to conduct their security business. For that, they owe me no apology. If that is a problem for me, I don't need to visit Italy.

We have a grave problem on our hands. It manifested itself via 7000+ untimely deaths. Fixing the problem is going to be a challenge and will be unpleasant for many.

How much more terrorism can you stomach?

Wake up, people.

Dudster

I can stomach a hell of a lot more terrorism before I'm willing to begin giving up basic rights. It is unfathomable to me how someone such as yourself can be so ready to defend the freedom of this great country while demonstrating such a poor understanding of it.

robinhood

Treasonous? Your post precisely illustrates the problem. You are confusing two different groups of people. Just because a small number of Arabs are terrorists, all of a sudden, all of them are? Or even worse, all of a sudden non-Arabs who happen to look like Arabs are also terrorists? The vast majority of Arab-Americans ARE "normal, law-abiding citizens with a proven record of allegiance." How is treating them as such inappropriate or TREASONOUS? What, may I ask, should we treat them as?

I thought we had learned the huge problems of judging one's loyalty to this country solely on skin color after the Japanese internment camps, but apparently that isn't the case. Are we now doomed to repeat the mistakes of history? This country is based on a respect for certain inalienable rights, and to suggest that these rights are in fact "alienable" for certain Americans because of their ethnic heritage is what is treasonous. I think looking up the definitions of the words prejudice, discrimination, and bias are truly in order.

FlyAAway

Robinhood:

With all of that said, can we strip away the emotion?

Now, how would you handle the situation?

You are correct, we can't tell if a person is a terrorist by looking at them. Nor can we tell if they are "normal, law-abiding citizens with a proven record of allegiance" just by looking at them.

Should we not err on the side of caution? The prevailing attitude prior to 9/11 was probably preferred by most, but it had disastrous results.

I am of Irish and German heritage. If someone decides that me, and people like me, are a threat (based upon credible evidence), I think it a small price to pay that any or all of us are inconvenienced to be deemed safe prior to flight.

Again, there is evidence that a certain group of people caused us great harm. Not all people like them intend us harm. Where would you draw the line?

For the record, I have been trained in anti-hijacking tactics. I have also carried a weapon inflight to prevent a hostile takeover on military flights (we fly more passengers than you might imagine; not all are in uniform).

If we could bring back the 7000+ who died, how many of them do you suppose would back your point of view?

I have only voiced an opinion; it was never advertised as a cast-iron fact. If you have a better way, I am listening.

robinhood

How effective do you think stripping away the rights of Arab-Americans will be? How hard do you think it is for terrorists to find a generically white-looking fanatic to commit terrorist acts with? And what happens when someone like Timothy McVeigh decides he wants to use a plane this time, instead of a Ryder truck? As some others have pointed out on various boards, profiling based on race is lazy investigation.

There are plenty of methods that would be far more effective: have competent baggage screeners at airports, have air marshals on flights, profile based on clear risk factors such as where, when, and how the ticket was purchased, whether the ticket was one-way, etc. etc. Clearly, I don't have all the answers, but that's not what they pay me the big bucks for.

But how about I ask you something? When you say we should "err on the side of caution," how far to that side must we err? Do we give white passengers the right to kick off any Arab-looking passengers they don't like? Because that's been happening. Do we ban all Arab passengers from flying? Because that's been suggested. Do we force Arab-Americans (even US citizens) to carry special identification like the Nazis forced the Jews to wear special stars? Because apparently 49% of Americans think we should. When you say that discrimination and prejudice are justified, where do you stop? At what point does our disrespect for other people's rights disgust even the most bigoted of us?

The ultimate question is this: you mention that if someone decides that you and people like you are a threat, you'd be willing to be inconvenienced. But why is it that when Timothy McVeigh blew up the building in OKC, no one thought white males should be profiled? No one suggested white males be barred from renting Ryder trucks? No one suggested white males ought to have special identification? I'm not necessarily looking for an answer -- but it's something to think about, isn't it?

summerdawn

In WWII we put people of Japanese descent in camps, stripped them of their rights and their property. We did the same with the Germans, it wasn't bad enough what the Nazis were doing? Those who don't learn from their mistakes are bound to repeat them.

Since the attack on the WTC I have flown both domestically and internationally and I have to tell you it wasn't too comfortable, and yes when I saw any one that looked middle Eastern it gave me a few qualms, but - and it's a big but-, I also realized that I have a lot of friends and coworkers of different ethnic origins and because one is bad doesn't mean they all are.

The worst thing that can happen here is that we let this divide us as a country. Will it be white against everyone else? Negroes against Mexicans? Everyone against the Middle Easterners?

Some of my co-workers were on those planes, yes on more than one, and I know they would not want this to divide this country. You are letting the terrorists win folks. We can either pull together as a country, across all races, ethnic and religious backgrounds, or we can let it destroy us. It's up to every single one of us. What's your choice?

------------------
What would you do if you weren't afraid?

FlyAAway

Where to begin? You pose a lot of questions. I don't believe I said to strip away anyone's rights, but if inconveniencing them prevents one more incident of the nature and magnitude of 9/11, then I would say it is very effective.

The generic white-male fanaticterrorist is not an impossible scenario, but likely more difficult than you might imagine. As a white male, I don't think we have the mind set to fly an aircraft into a building; I think I would flinch and go around. Timothy McVeigh chose not to be in his truck.

Competent baggage checkers? We agree on that.

How far must we err? Far enough to prevent another 7000+ deaths. Not knowing your gender, or whether you have a family, but assume you are a man with a family for the sake of discussion. Would you forfeit the life of your wife and children rather than abridge the rights of a group whose members have vowed violence against the U.S? Count me out.

Have you traveled on the Arabian Peninsula? Suppose you were considered a threat on, say, Gulf Air. Suppose an Arab, in his own land, wanted you removed from the aircraft. Do you think he would, or should, exit the aircraft instead of you?

Do we give white citizens the right to kick Arabs off the aircraft? Short answer? No. Do we provide them the right to be assured that everyone boarding the aircraft has no hostile intent? Yes! For the record, white citizens are not the only ones with concerns about folks from the Middle East.

No one thought white males should be profiled after OK City? That is a bold statement that I don't believe you could easily quantify. You are correct, it is something to think about.

I sense that you consider me prejudiced, perhaps even bigoted. Be aware that I count among my friends people from the following countries:

Saudi Arabia
United Arab Emirates
Kuwait
Pakistan
India
Sri Lanka
Kenya

For the record, many of them have decried the horror that was visited upon us. One of them, a Pakistani, had visited the WTC only weeks before the incident. His children said "Dad, that could have been us." He understands that things will change for us all. Again, I believe he is happier forfeiting a "right" by being singled out and inconvenienced while knowing that these actions could potentially keep him and his sons alive.

The problem was manifested on U.S. soil, but it is truly a global problem. We have already given up our "right" to worry free travel.

Once more, if I were considered a threat, based upon credible evidence, I would happily accomodate your right to proceed on your flight without me. Take me off of the flight, make absolutely certain that I have no hostile intent or the means to act on it, and put me on the next flight.

One more thing; I think precise replicas of the towers should be rebuilt.

Oh, since you mentioned it...what do they pay you the big bucks for?


[This message has been edited by FlyAAway (edited 09-28-2001).]

robinhood

You say in response to the question of how far we should err, "far enough to prevent another 7000+ deaths." Well, I would suggest that's a pretty glib answer. The problem with your wife/children vs. other people's rights example is that it doesn't follow that the abrogation of rights will result in the preservation of safety. Ultimately, did the internment of Japanese-Americans really win us the war? What's even more disturbing is that focusing entirely on race is likely to leave us vulnerable as terrorists wise up and start using white-looking terrorists. Or for that matter, when home-grown terrorists start exploiting our (white) blind spot. Would you be willing to sacrifice YOUR wife and children just to prove your point that racial profiling is a sufficient anti-terrorism measure?

As for whether Americans should be randomly kicked off Gulf Air flights to suit the whims of Arab passengers in their own land -- no, they shouldn't. But does that happen? Furthermore, when we're talking about Arab-Americans (or even, absurdly, African-Americans and Latino-Americans), they ARE in their own land. This IS their country. Are we to create a category of second-class citizens in this country based on race? Haven't we gone through this before? Which brings me to my initial point -- "they" are exactly like "us" -- they are normal, law-abiding citizens. If treating them as normal, law-abiding citizens is treasonous, what should we treat them as?

As for whether people called for profiling of white males -- no, I don't have the poll data for what percentage of Americans felt that white people should carry special ID cards. But the fact that the poll question was never asked is pretty instructive, don't you think? Why is there a double standard between our reaction to Arab terrorism versus our reaction to homegrown terrorism? Is it because it's easier to give up other people's rights than it is to give up ours?

They pay me the small bucks, by the way, to treat sick people.

Flyaway

Posted by FlyAAway:


"The way Arabs in this country are being treated may be painful, but it is not wrong and certainly not predjudicial. We were attacked my a number of persons of Arab origin. They hated us and all we stand for. They are in fact our sworn enemies. Treating them as if they were normal, law-abiding citizens with a proven record of allegiance is not only inappropriate at this time, but perhaps even treasonous."

I wonder how different your post would be if you yourself were of Arab origin??

kbrownmd

People such as FlyAAway, Benoit and 100000 should be very careful what they ask for. One day they may be on the receiving end.

A German monk in the days of Adolf Hitler once wrote (please excuse the paraphrase)

"When they came for the Jews I did not take a stand, because I was not a Jew.
When they came for the labour unionists I did not take a stand, for I was not a labour unionist.
When they came for the Catholics I did not take a stand, because I was not a Catholic.
When they came for me, there was no one left to take a stand."


------------------
kbhrownmd

benoit

This issue is best summarized by a Muslim writer in this thoughtful article, a must read:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...ent%2Dopinions

I think this article will open people's eyes.

On another topic, I'd say that Kbrownmd is absolutely right. Let's not be Neville Chamberlaigns while America is turned into a death camp by islamic terrorists. This Trade Center and Pentagon attack is our Krystalnacht, we have been asleep too long already, let's wake up. It is easy for us to say that those 7000 dead were someone else's problem, as have with other assaults by these groups.
No honest person can pretend that the groups that attacked America will, if let alone, not attack again. Nor can any honest person say that this next attack is not at least reasonably likely to kill thousands upon thousands of innocent people.

If we are not careful, and do not forcefully confront this evil as we did the Nazis in WWII, we may well be next. Let's not make up trite politically correct excuses and bogus slippery slope arguments to stop us from being vigilant enough to stop the next attack. An extra question or stare is not an interment camp, nor is it a question of "rights", nor is it an indication our country is headed towards being as evil and oppressive as the Taliban. I'd be the first to holler if it were.

“We don’t differentiate between those dressed in military uniforms and civilians. They are all targets in this fatwa.”
"We - with God's help - call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it."
-- guess who

crAAzy

I can only voice my feelings in repsonse to this comment. Yes, we have and have always had a proud military history of men and women who so obviously put their lives on the line to fight and protect the values this country holds dear. However, as a civilian and an American citizen, I too am willing to accept certain risks for the freedom I have.
Yes I am willing to give up some time and put up with delays because I think there should be tighter airport security and yes I am all in favor of armed sky marshalls. If these measures aren't taken it might impact my decision to fly in the future.
But I am not willing to sit or stand by and watch a person or persons experience the obvious ingnorance, hatred and humiliation that was described in the above incident. I sit here with a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach as deep as I had on September 11th.

Yes, I would even go as far to say that I would rather be flown into a side of a building then have to live in a society that condones this type of behavior and witness it on a regular basis.

FlyAAway

It might be no different, it might be very different. Are you of Arab origin? If so, perhaps you can shed some light.

When traveling in the Middle East, which I have done often and recently, I am extremely circumspect. I am not demanding or obnoxious, nor do I assume that anyone owes me anything including courtesy. There are facets of Arabic culture that I do not subscribe to or am philosophically opposed to, still I am respectful.

Respect is at the heart of my argument(s). People come to this country from all over the world, and expect their culture to take top billing over mine. I have friends from Sri Lanka who have been here for over 35 years and still dress as they did in their homeland. Why is that? Of course they are free to do as they please. I am free to think it a bit odd.

Oh, and they are Sri Lankan-Americans. Not Americans; Sri Lankan-Americans. I wonder how many American-Sri Lankans I could locate in Colombo? I think the entire concept is disrespectful. If everything about your country and culture are so wonderful, why ever did you leave? The level of tolerance toward this attitude is found nowhere else that I have traveled.

FlyAAway

I am extremely careful in what I wish for. I wish that we had policies in place that made sure that people who came to my country behaved in a civilized manner, and did not kill innocent civilians.

As for taking a stand, I most humbly beg your pardon. Every time I put on the uniform of my country (U.S. Air Force) and fly in harm's way, I take a stand. I have, and will continue to, put my life on the line to preserve your right to hold dear an opinion that chills me.

Have you ever flown in an airplane that was within range of an air-to-ground missile? Have you ever served your country in any capacity?

We were attacked on our own soil. I have dedicated a large portion of my adult life to make certain we would be free from this type of assault.

How dare you take an anonymous stand on the web, and criticize the way our country is responding to the situation. People are scared; aren't you? What is the next target that these fanatics have in mind? How will you stop them? I really want to know.

To compare what we are seeing to the Japanese interment camps is a stretch. And what were the citizens of that time to do? How would you have handled it? Before you ask, I have a friend who was in a camp as a child. It was unfortunate, but he understands why it happened and was embarrased that the government wanted to pay him reparations.