Seat assignments are irrelevant, as the possession or absence of a seat asssignment has nothing to do with AA's IDB priority, as I posted yesterday.

Why do posters keep talking about seat assignments?

There may be other airlines where seat assignments are relevant, but not at AA.

I can't answer any of those questions. All I see is that there were four members of the group that did not have seat assignments, no one volunteered to take a VDB, and the plane ultimately went out with 20 open seats AFTER 1 standby and 3 non-revs were accommodated. So in total it would seem that 24 people with seat assignments were offloaded and 4 people without seat assignments also didn't fly.

Upon further review....
 

I can't believe that there weren't 4-6 passengers who would have jumped ALL over the compensation. Unless they were offering $1.97 in loose change and stand by on a future flight on PA, EA, or TW.

In 2010, at LGA, right after a rainstorm had closed the airport the previous day, so all was messed up with Cancellations. But I was comfortable in the knowledge of my SWU upgraded seat. Cleared Security and went up to the AC.

At boarding time, I came down to a sea of bodies at the gate, loud voices, and chaos.

Long story short-Group of 25-30 highschoolers were trying to get back to Texas. TOGETHER. STANDBY.

Evidently the leader had been unpleasantly in the GA face for a while. In order to get these standbys out as a group, he had been authorized to offer vdb. When I got there, the GA announced they needed one more volunteer, or the whole group couldn't/wouldn't go. I asked the gate agent how much ($400) and could he keep me in 1st? He asked if it was a sticker upg, and I said SWU. He checked, if I was willing to wait 7 hours for confirmed F, and be standby for earlier. I said 7 hours? I don't think so.

He said to wait a minute, talked to his supervisor and they came back. The supervisor said how much? I shot him a price (more than the $400) and he said "Done". I said before you take me off, there has got to be some lonley EXP in Y you could give my seat to instead of the group leader. Bad behaviour should not be rewarded. GA said that would not be a problem.

At that point the group leader came up and said, "So, are you going to give up your seat or what?" My response, "If you are going to continue being a d@@@, no. If you shut up and go away, maybe. If you shut up, go way, and act like an adult, yes. The choice is now yours." He walked away.

I ok'ed the deal, and the gate agent got on the PA, and said before I begin unavoidably delayed 1st class boarding, we have our last volunteer-That means all of you from XYZ High School are going home!"

Group leader comes up before boarding and thanks me, as if nothing had happened.

(And no I won't say how much!) :D

I'm a regular on the IAD-LAX route.

AA76 was a tough flight for overbooking, even back in the days where it was a 757. Worse now with the 738s. There have been times in the past where AA subbed a 762 on the route (sometimes 76, more often 149 and the associated "pair" flight) to accommodate groups. All at this time of year. 76 is a flight where I missed more EXP/Segment upgrades than any other in the system.

Given that it's DC, given that it's spring break, and given that DC has a lot going on right now, I am not surprised that there were few or no takers for VDB. All that could - and should - have been taken into account somewhere along the line. At least have a plan for dealing with the potential for IDB.

That said, whoever booked the kids (travel agent, I assume) should have ensured that there were seat assignments. AA group sales should have made sure that seats were assigned - it's not likely that this was a close-in booking. But I'd bet that there were so few "non-premium" seats available in the Y cabin that there simply weren't advance seats for all. AA COULD have freed up premium/pay-for seats in advance to accommodate the group, but I'd bet that some revenue specialist somewhere wouldn't do so because they thought they could sell them (or they needed them for status passengers). And by the time it got to the VDB process, AA was not likely to get status passengers to give up their seats (Monday is not a typical MR day...), nor were people who PAID for their seats likely to give them up (though I'd suspect that an offer of an F seat on a later flight might have dislodged a few).

This was a bad deal all around, and both the group and AA will be paying for the outcome.

@:-)This. A million times this.@:-)

People keep going on and on about seat assignments being some unbreakable insurance policy against being IDB'd, but that is simply not the case. Anyone can be IDB'd. It even says words to that effect in the contract of carriage (as posted earlier). A seat assignment is not a guarantee against being IDB'd. Period.

In thinking about it, I believe that the GA (and the AA process) did screw up. Not that they should have violated the published IDB policy to eject people "out of order." What they should have done was to gradually increase the VDB until they got the 4-6 people. Everyone has a price. Everyone. There would undoubtedly have been enough people at a reasonable (but higher than offered) price.

Others have mentioned this upthread, but we all continue to debate out-of-order IDB when this is so much simpler. It would have saved:

1. Money in the long run
2. A publicity faux pas
3. About 100 or so posts :)

Cheers.

It can be amazingly hard to get VDBs. On a Monday morning, most people probably have work or a work-related commitment on the other end. If not, they are likely leisure travelers heading to DC for spring break and not anxious to delay their trip.

Any updates what exactly happened at the gate?
The 27 8th graders already arrived at their destination?

That's a fact question. Remember, facts are irrelevant. ;)

Exactly...but even moreso, threatening a hissy fit if they don't get that supposedly "earned" perk.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the entitlement generation. They want what they want and they want it now. Best stay out of the way. :rolleyes:

--mcz

Well, cool. If you don't feel that you're entitled to the things you've earned, that just leaves more for the rest of us. I can PM my address, and you can just send along your next paycheck :)

Seriously- why would someone earn a status (or buy a perk, a good seat at a concert, etc.) if they shouldn't expect to receive what they earned?

To claim that there is some over-entitlement mentality when people expect things that they've actually earned is obviously ridiculous. Perhaps you're not serious (because what you're saying really makes no sense) and I've just missed the joke. Apologies if so.

Cheers.

I think you are correct. More facts mixed with inflammatory and inaccurate bologna, IMO. Their booking should have been made through AA Groups Travel (and discounted); an on time or early airport arrival and further contact with Group Travel or someone responsible should have allowed for reaccommodation (perhaps at least partially on a competing airline.

(I daresay such sloppy editorial skills might also be reflective of equally poor reportorial skills...)

And the idea of members of a group requiring the airline to pass on the IDB to others makes little sense.

Sure, it appears some AA employees missed the issue, but we have no idea who did that - was in RM with faulty assumptions? The TAs when this group checked in? The GAs?

Did AA respond adequately?


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Especially the day after Easter Sunday/Easter Weekend. Lots of folks needed to make it home.

I'm not sure why this seat assignment business is still being discussed. Whether there were seats assigned or not has no bearing on whether someone will be IDBd, at least, not according to AA's terms.

I thought that it was a requirement when booking > 9 seats, otherwise it wouldn't have been 1 group of 27+ passengers, but at least 3 groups of passengers

If they did try to avoid using group booking and did just book in groups of max 9 and then 1 group got denied boarding, then I would be putting the blame on the organiser for trying to circumvent group booking rules

If however, it was booked as a group travel, then I do think that AA was wrong . Surely when denying travel, all passengers in a booking should get to travel or be denied. No different than , say, 1 parent and 1 child travelling together, no one would seriously expect that the child should be denied whilst parent travels?

Given that AA states ( http://www.aa.com/i18n/customerServi...OfCarriage.jsp )

American will usually deny boarding based upon check-in time, but we may also consider factors such as severe hardships, fare paid, and status within the AAdvantage® program.

I wonder why people do keep talking about seat assigments regarding IDB

Why would I want to know that? We'd have a resolution and this thread die off. ;)

Seriously, there are so many juicy airline threads these days that it's 3:17pm and I haven't even made it to the hotel forums yet.

Mike

While I believe that the AA employees dropped the ball on Monday at LAX, I would argue that there's a huge difference between the "severe hardship" that would result from splitting a solo parent from their child(ren) and the inconvenience that might result from splitting a group of eighth graders. I doubt that AA's use of the words "severe hardship" in its IDB priority criteria was meant as a guarantee that no member of any group booking would ever be involuntarily denied boarding. If that were the case, then the IDB priority criteria could be rewritten to simply exclude anyone in a group. Perhaps that's the way it should be.

Stinging self-indictment. Just because one has the right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do. Bells?

Golden Rule. Milk of human kindness. Charity. Enlightened self-interest. Any of this sound familiar?

This on top of the disputed question of what exactly is "earned" by one's status. Citation to the governing rule in prior posts suggests that being an AA big shot is no guarantee against an IDB under extraordinary circumstances.

--mcz

I think that any passengers travelling together should either all be denied boarding or non should be. Even 2 people travelling on the same itinerary should , imo, either both board or both not be boarded

I don't know whether AA's policies do cover this or not. Regardless, surelyAA should recognise the PR fiasco splitting up a school group in this manner would cause

Off the mark again, but you're getting closer. :)

It is possible to be very charitable and still received earned perks. In the present case, higher VDB would have solved the problem. The interesting terms you've thrown about (all of which I agree with) are not relevant here.

Self indictment? Maybe only to one who still isn't getting it. Since that's not me, no self-indictment at all. Just a perception of such.

As to the rule, no, there are not reasonably-crafted disputes here, quite clearly. Unless you can cite this as "severe hardship," and that would be laughable on the face of it, there isn't wiggle room in the published benefits.

But it was a nice try :)

Cheers.

I'm not sure that a hard and fast rule that would protect every non-solo travleler from IDB would be ideal.

For instance, what if the first person to check in was a full-fare First Class EXP traveling alone and everyone else was a couple or part of a larger group? By definition, they all checked in later than the one solo passenger. And the flight was oversold by one and no takers for Voluntary DB compensation. Would you really IDB the most valuable customer on the plane? The one who (under the current scheme) is virtually immune from IDB? What if a flight is comprised of several large groups?

Thank you! ^ It was disappointing for the group to lose out on a day of their trip, no question, but kids have a remarkable ability to manage. Much better than adults do.

I was on a high school trip a few years ago where our first flight was overbooked. Four kids and one teacher were IDBd, took a different routing, and arrived less than an hour after the rest of us. While we were of course annoyed everyone took the issue in stride and we decided among ourselves which four would take the other flights. It was just a non-issue, probably because this is a school where most students fly frequently with their families. Obviously we don't know all the facts, but it seems like poor judgement calls were made all around.

To those suggesting the group couldn't be split up, I ask why? I certainly would not have made the same decision if I were in the principal's shoes. If he didn't think to call his TA (maybe he did?) then he really is completely incompetent to run a group trip.

It wouldn't protect any non-solo traveller , except if a flight only needed to deny 1 passenger

If needing to deny 4 passengers boarding, then any 4 that doesn't split up a single booking would seem perfectly reasonable whether it be a group of 4 or 4 solo travellers ( or other splits that do not disrupt a single travelling group )

When I travel in groups, we go with the understanding that crap happens when you travel (doesn't even have to be IDB - weather and mechanical delays cause major problems when trying to get a large group somewhere). We have a plan for what we will do if we need to split up to get where we are going (i.e. who goes with what group, who absolutely has to make it there first, who is okay traveling separately and who must be with someone else, etc). Of course this is for a group of adults, but even more so when kids are involved, you need to have a plan in place in advance. It sounds like this group didn't have a plan for what would happen if there were issues with the flight, no matter the cause, and that goes down to the organizer/booking agent, whether it be someone at the school, a travel agent, or if they booked directly, someone in AA groups.

And no this does not mean I think that AA was in the right. Taking the article at face value (and yes I know that's a big assumption), a little discretion on the gate agent's part might've avoided a PR issue. Yes it might've involved IDBing someone else if they couldn't get enough volunteers, but that would probably be better than the mess they've got now. And yes I know there are rules for IDB, but as quoted many times above, part of the rules includes discretion. Why it wasn't used here, who knows.

If the principal was the only school official or teacher along, there is really no way he could split up the group. Lots of liability issues; the school official is likely the only person authorized to act in loco parentis and any further misconnection/mishap could have led to lawsuits, firing, etc.

The likely cause of the whole mess is that the GA on the spot did not have the delegated authority to deliver whatever VDB compensation it took to free up spots on the plane, and couldn't get ahold of anyone who did. If the GA offered more than authorized, they may have put their job on the line.

A more proactive travel agent would have helped a lot. My parents are both teachers, and took groups on long trips. The TA was usually there at the airport making sure everything went smoothly, and that doesn't sound like it happened here.

But, is splitting a group of 27 really a hardship, as long as there is a responsible person with the 2 subgroups? That is, if I am by myself and there 2 people that would be separated by a lack of seats, should I be the one IDB just for that?

Yup. It's called "charitable donations" on my tax form.

And it's about someone that has earned a perk exercising compassion for someone less fortunate than them and not exercising the perk.

Justice (or THE PROCESS THAT SHALL BE FOLLOWED) should be tempered with mercy. Or at least with some good PR sense to know what'll happen. A few AA EXPs grousing on FT is a world of difference from "8th graders flying for first time kicked off American Airlines." As an example of course, as we do not know who would have been IDBed in place of the students.

{snort} :p

Coming soon to an airport gate near you:

AA: Sorry Mr. [burp], but we are IDB'ing you for this group of 29 nuns and orphans heading to visit the Pope.

brp: That's laughable on its face. DYKWIA? I'm an EXP. This is outrageous. I have Tom Horton on speed dial. Who cares about a bunch of nuns and orphans anyway? They're unclean and don't know a bulkhead seat from an emergency exit row.

AA: Need to keep the group together. Orders from on high. Big headache otherwise. Couldn't get enough VDBs. Here's your check. Sorry.

brp: ...I'll sue. The rules are clear. There's no wiggle room.

AA: Sorry sir. They're our rules and they give us leeway to deal with exceptional situations like this. Sue all you want but you're not flying on this aircraft...now you want your check or not? Or do I have to call security?

brp: Well, I never...[sputter, sputter, blah blah blah]

Only a matter of time. Cheers;)

--mcz

Very amusing ^^ :D

Obviously not reflective of me by any stretch of the imagination (although you would have no way of knowing that). Perhaps slightly (well, a little more than slighty) delusional, and missing the point...again... but definitely a good laugh.

I like you; you're fun :)

Cheers.

Excellent point. I do quite a lot of that myself. Probably a bad counterexample on my part. I should have been more explicit as simply remitting more taxes so that others who make less might not have to :)

Cheers.

Why? Am is missing why one withold this interesting detail from the story??

Yes.

Best not let religion get involved in IDB priorities. Value judgements start to fly...

Value judgements. On FT?
 

Time to stick a fork in this thread?

I'm out. Pleasure passing the time hereabouts.

5 AA segments coming up mid-month. Glad spring break will have run its course. :) I hope winter weather as well.

--mcz

Oh I don't know. Somehow we can infer the TSA kept them from getting the group to the gate in time and we can do another 10 pages.

It was fun. Safe travels and hopes for delay-free weather :)

Cheers.

The report early in this thread that at one point the GA told them they'd have to buy six tickets on other flights, or tickets for everyone on other flights if the group insisted on staying together, doesn't sound like the IDB conditions were met. Perhaps check in wasn't completed by the deadline or the group arrived late at the gate, but the GA was willing to allow as many as possible, given the number of available seats, to fly anyway.

Given the PR mess, AA might nevertheless be giving compensation even though the group failed to satisfy the required conditions to be entitled to compensation.