View Poll Results: My opinion of the announced AA - US merger is:
This is the best of all possible worlds; great idea!
33
3.93%
This portends a stronger airline, with some changes for all
192
22.88%
I am neutral - pros and cons for all
199
23.72%
I think this is a somewhat bad idea with some real challenges
226
26.94%
I am completely opposed to this merger; terrible idea!
189
22.53%
Voters: 839. You may not vote on this poll
AA - US Merger Agreement / Announcement / DOJ Action Discussion (consolidated)
#2671
Join Date: Jul 2013
Programs: AA EXP; UA 1k; MR Platinum; SPG Gold
Posts: 167
With the cut in labor costs they of course were going to make a profit. You make it seem like Horton has made a miracle. Can they sustain these profits, of course not. Not when they will have to negotiate a new contract with the pilot. We won't accept anything other than what delta and united have. Considering we can compete with them as many say, well then they can pay us the same.
=more operating income
#2672
Join Date: Feb 2008
Programs: 6 year GS, now 2MM Jeff-ugee, *wood LTPlt, SkyPeso PLT
Posts: 6,526
With the cut in labor costs they of course were going to make a profit. You make it seem like Horton has made a miracle. Can they sustain these profits, of course not. Not when they will have to negotiate a new contract with the pilot. We won't accept anything other than what delta and united have. Considering we can compete with them as many say, well then they can pay us the same.
AA's operating revenues were up $153M ($129m was AA mainline passenger revenue). Wages fell by ($74M), but other expenses increased, so that the total expenses only fell by ($19M). The profit increased by $172M, so nearly all of it was extra revenue.
The fall in costs is expected in a BKR, extra revenue is not.
That's an actual AA/B6 merger.
But what has also been discussed in the past is things like AA and B6 extending their (currently limited) codesharing / cross-earning much more and/or B6 joining [AA in] the oneworld alliance
(Roughly an east-coast version of the existing AA/AS "west coast solution".)
Presumably neither of those would require anti-trust clearing?
But what has also been discussed in the past is things like AA and B6 extending their (currently limited) codesharing / cross-earning much more and/or B6 joining [AA in] the oneworld alliance
(Roughly an east-coast version of the existing AA/AS "west coast solution".)
Presumably neither of those would require anti-trust clearing?
I do expect B6 to further code share with AA once this merger is killed off on or around December 13, 2013.
Did AA themselves pay for the $1.3 billion terminal 8 rebuild? I remember they scaled back the project some, and could expand in the future if they wanted to, but didn't they pay for the project? Could US just be leasing gates from them being that they didn't contribute to that project?
I see that DL is paying $1.4 billion on their remodel at JFK. I can't see other carriers moving in there, either, unless there's some benefit to Delta in terms of gate rentals or paying a share of the project costs.
I see that DL is paying $1.4 billion on their remodel at JFK. I can't see other carriers moving in there, either, unless there's some benefit to Delta in terms of gate rentals or paying a share of the project costs.
I don't agree.
I think that DoJ is primarily focused on ensuring that the industry not consolidate down to fewer than four legacy carriers. This is the same goal they pursued in the AT&T/T-Mobile deal. They were willing to allow 6-5 and 5-4 (in both airlines and cellular), but won't allow 4-3.
After blocking AT&T/T-Mobile, DoJ has allowed several smaller cellular mergers to go through. I think it is quite possible that they would allow any degree of consolidation by AA or US (but not UA or DL) among the small carriers (B6, AS, VX, etc.) so long as AA and US were both viable. If they started to think that US wasn't viable, then they might restrict mergers only to US (so it could bulk itself back up to profitability) but not AA. This seems to be what they are doing in cellular, where they are focused on allowing Sprint and T-Mobile to bulk up to be competitive with the big 2 -- AT&T and Verizon.
Leaving aside the issue of slot-constrained airports (like JFK), which have an easy remedy, DoJ seems focused on broad system effects in these industries, and is trying to ensure that the overall industry structure remain competitive, defined to mean including four broad, full-line, nationwide competitors. On this basis, the consolidation of players 5-10 by players 3 and 4 might actually be beneficial to competition (as AA and US are arguing is the case for their merger).
Note that historical Republican administrations have generally been more willing to allow 4-3 consolidation than Democratic administrations. AA might well take another bite at the USAir apple when we have a Republican in the White House (and at the DoJ).
I think that DoJ is primarily focused on ensuring that the industry not consolidate down to fewer than four legacy carriers. This is the same goal they pursued in the AT&T/T-Mobile deal. They were willing to allow 6-5 and 5-4 (in both airlines and cellular), but won't allow 4-3.
After blocking AT&T/T-Mobile, DoJ has allowed several smaller cellular mergers to go through. I think it is quite possible that they would allow any degree of consolidation by AA or US (but not UA or DL) among the small carriers (B6, AS, VX, etc.) so long as AA and US were both viable. If they started to think that US wasn't viable, then they might restrict mergers only to US (so it could bulk itself back up to profitability) but not AA. This seems to be what they are doing in cellular, where they are focused on allowing Sprint and T-Mobile to bulk up to be competitive with the big 2 -- AT&T and Verizon.
Leaving aside the issue of slot-constrained airports (like JFK), which have an easy remedy, DoJ seems focused on broad system effects in these industries, and is trying to ensure that the overall industry structure remain competitive, defined to mean including four broad, full-line, nationwide competitors. On this basis, the consolidation of players 5-10 by players 3 and 4 might actually be beneficial to competition (as AA and US are arguing is the case for their merger).
Note that historical Republican administrations have generally been more willing to allow 4-3 consolidation than Democratic administrations. AA might well take another bite at the USAir apple when we have a Republican in the White House (and at the DoJ).
Clearly a different administration could have a different view. AA/AS (or DL/AS) are less of an issue as combining their market share does not likely restrain competition at any location, and there is not much head to head competition on routes that others don't fly.
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Last edited by dstan; Aug 28, 2013 at 8:40 pm Reason: personal exchange and off-topic political discussion redacted
#2673
Join Date: Feb 2008
Programs: 6 year GS, now 2MM Jeff-ugee, *wood LTPlt, SkyPeso PLT
Posts: 6,526
Lorenzo praised Parker in this February article.
http://www.thestreet.com/story/11840...-it-right.html
http://www.thestreet.com/story/11840...-it-right.html
"Throughout his career, Lorenzo battled labor, using bankruptcy to force concessions at Continental. But in 1989, when he tried to force concessions on the International Association of Machinists at Eastern, the union struck and was followed out by flight attendants and pilots, forcing the carrier into bankruptcy court. There, a judge took control from Lorenzo and awarded it to a trustee, who ran Eastern until it failed in 1991."
Wow, a win-win story there...
Wow, a win-win story there...
#2674
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2001
Location: LAX; AA EXP, MM; HH Gold
Posts: 31,789
Did AA themselves pay for the $1.3 billion terminal 8 rebuild? I remember they scaled back the project some, and could expand in the future if they wanted to, but didn't they pay for the project? Could US just be leasing gates from them being that they didn't contribute to that project?
I see that DL is paying $1.4 billion on their remodel at JFK. I can't see other carriers moving in there, either, unless there's some benefit to Delta in terms of gate rentals or paying a share of the project costs.
I see that DL is paying $1.4 billion on their remodel at JFK. I can't see other carriers moving in there, either, unless there's some benefit to Delta in terms of gate rentals or paying a share of the project costs.
The airport authority sells tax-free bonds sufficient to pay the construction costs; the airline signs a long-term lease; the rent is designed to pay the debt service on the bonds. As they're tax-free bonds, the interest rate is very low.
I assume that US is leasing space from AA, probably on a short-term basis (anticipating that the merger would be approved). When the plug is pulled on the merger, US may find itself homeless at JFK.
#2675
In Memoriam, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Benicia CA
Programs: Alaska MVP Gold 75K, AA 3.8MM, UA 1.1MM, enjoying the retired life
Posts: 31,849
This answer is highly simplified, but here goes:
The airport authority sells tax-free bonds sufficient to pay the construction costs; the airline signs a long-term lease; the rent is designed to pay the debt service on the bonds. As they're tax-free bonds, the interest rate is very low.
The airport authority sells tax-free bonds sufficient to pay the construction costs; the airline signs a long-term lease; the rent is designed to pay the debt service on the bonds. As they're tax-free bonds, the interest rate is very low.
#2676
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: SFO
Programs: AA LTP 2MM, Marriott/SPG Rabid Plat w/Ambassador, HHonors Gold
Posts: 696
Frankly, I am surprised at this level of lawyering that AA/US's lawyers said some of the things they did. For example (1) citing FTC administrative law judge proceedings as similar when arguing that typically these cases are tried in 90 days, or (2) failing to note that the case they were relying upon most heavily had been rejected by the ATT/T-mobile judge in setting the trial date therein (the timing DOJ wants here), or (3) claiming that discovery was concluded in May, without bothering to note that they had dumped 3 Million pages of documents on the DOJ at that time, or (4) suggesting/implying that DOJ was ready on August 15 as they had filed then, when that deadline had been imposed by AA/US, are all shady. Worse, it allowed DOJ to make them out as being less than honest with Judge Kollar, which is never a good thing.
Had someone filed a brief making any of these type of boarder line misrepresentations to a Federal Judge, and my name was on it, I would not want to start off explaining how this got filed...
Had someone filed a brief making any of these type of boarder line misrepresentations to a Federal Judge, and my name was on it, I would not want to start off explaining how this got filed...
#2677
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2001
Location: LAX; AA EXP, MM; HH Gold
Posts: 31,789
So in a chapter 7 bankruptcy, the Port Authority could take a serious credit hit if they don't find a new tenant to produce revenue to pay off those bonds? Sounds like they're invested in AA to the extent they need to be viable to produce that lease revenue to pay the bonds.
STL is another example. AA rejected most of the STL leases as one of the first accomplishments of its bankruptcy. Fortunately for AA, other airlines were willing to take over its leaseholds at SJC, BNA and RDU.
Early in the AA bankruptcy, AA's bankruptcy lawyers were discussing the possibility that AA could keep the leasehold interests at JFK and MIA (and perhaps other hubs) but wiggle out from under the huge tax-free bond debt. And then renegotiate the rent downward. I don't think that went anywhere.
#2678
Join Date: Jul 2013
Programs: AA EXP; UA 1k; MR Platinum; SPG Gold
Posts: 167
2013 JPM Aviation, Transports, & Defense Conference
Barger made it very clear that he wished to deepen the relationship with AA.
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/2013-...-with-american
EK had also made it clear they wanted to do something with AA. EK = dumping a TON of potential connecting traffic into AA hubs giving AA some bodies to fill seats on organic growth.
#2679
Moderator, OneWorld
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: SEA
Programs: RAA RIP; AA ExEXP
Posts: 11,795
It wasn't the PNYNJ that issued the conduit bonds, it was the NYC Industrial Development Agency.
AA has already worked out the "what if" scenarios with the Bankruptcy Court, other secured and unsecured creditors, and the bondholders. Read the Emma filing from March (from Mellon the trustee): http://emma.msrb.org/ER657281-ER509811-.pdf
AA has already worked out the "what if" scenarios with the Bankruptcy Court, other secured and unsecured creditors, and the bondholders. Read the Emma filing from March (from Mellon the trustee): http://emma.msrb.org/ER657281-ER509811-.pdf
#2680
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BWI
Programs: AA Gold, HH Diamond, National Emerald Executive, TSA Disparager Gold
Posts: 15,180
#2682
Moderator: Coupon Connection & S.P.A.M
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Louisville, KY
Programs: Destination Unknown, TSA Disparager Diamond (LTDD)
Posts: 57,952
#2683
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BWI
Programs: AA Gold, HH Diamond, National Emerald Executive, TSA Disparager Gold
Posts: 15,180
#2685
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2001
Location: LAX; AA EXP, MM; HH Gold
Posts: 31,789
Here is a document published by the AA pilots containing merger/antitrust talking points:
https://public.alliedpilots.org/APA/...=1042&mid=2085
Basically, the APA has asked its membership to "go forth and spread the gospel" and I suspect that we'll see more single-issue posters doing just that.
https://public.alliedpilots.org/APA/...=1042&mid=2085
Basically, the APA has asked its membership to "go forth and spread the gospel" and I suspect that we'll see more single-issue posters doing just that.