HRDiva

Post 311 plus numerous others.

elitetraveler

Your point seems to be that the pilot "focus on doing their job and only their job" is to highlight "how bad the management is" is exactly their point. @:-)

If you read the pilot boards, there seems to be quite a bit of sentiment that things haven't been right at AA since the early 80s when the "B scale" was created.

The bottom line however is some pilots have materially changed the way they do their jobs and it is negatively impacting performance. That is a fact.

JDiver

I think nobody can doubt some pilots are involved in a somewhat cellularly-designed work slowdown / work to rule action. Many more are working professionally and doing their job. We should remember that, lest we paint everyone with the same broad brush, whether pro- or con.

Regarding respect, I kind of like what Robert Crandall wrote in rely to a pilot asking him two questions recently:

Link to blog article.

If / when AA comes out the other end, they will now have to do some significant brand name repair, and the more recalcitrant of the pilots will not get what they want - either because of an injunction, merger with USAir (where the FAs yet again rejected another offer, only five+ years and counting) where the pilots will not be happy in the end, or a Chapter 7 leaving every AA employee in at least the unenviable position of applying for their job at lower scales with whoever purchases some of the pieces.

(I imagine the more senior pilots have the most to lose, may be mostly eschewing these actions and more junior and angry officers may be carrying them out in greater numbers?)

NauticalWheeler

I do not have a stake in this, but I can tell you that the pilots are trying to get the airline's attention. Pilots are not flight attendants or ground crew--they are highly skilled and highly trained. The pilots know they can call the shots and there is nothing AA can do about it (other than reduce capacity, which only hurts the airline). My last flight on AA was in August and the crew was extremely professional. If I had important plans in the next few months, I would not even consider booking AA and that is where the problem lies.

After Eastern ceased operations, some in the union heralded it as a victory. Though not on strike, some of the AA pilots may have the same feelings.

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/01/19/bu...ted=all&src=pm

"The feeling of the strikers remains so strong that several members of the union, which is still on strike, hailed the shutdown as a victory while they picketed at La Guardia Airport in New York last night ."

dstan

Some recent personal exchanges have now been redacted. Play the ball not the other player.

/Moderator

able

It's always disturbing to hear someone proclaim they know with absolute certainty what is happening in a field in which they have no direct involvement.

I fly, but not for American, and I can't tell if it's a concerted slow down or not. It may be but so far I have seen no direct evidence.

At my company it has been noted that over 85% of our maintenance write ups occur on the inbound leg to a maintenance station. Historically operations at air carriers tend to crater when pilots get to the point that they are no longer interested in carrying an operation. Sometimes it's a gradual fall off as more and more pilots stop going above and beyond but when a large number give it up at the same time the operation tends to look like American's.

A couple of letters with some American specific details on Terry Maxon's blog:
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...y-delays.html/

sfoeuroflyer

Well I have an ATP rating and am not stupid. There are a few really bad apples who are destroying an airline and who should be summarily fired. or worse. Sorry have to repeat: even an old dog knows the difference between being accidentally tripped over and being deliberately kicked. I guess some on this forum don't meet the old dog standard.

Discussion for another day: whether there should be unions allowed in areas that are clearly pubic necessities such as an airlines.

And any bozo pilot who pulls this stuff again on one of my flights gets an earful.

able

The fact you have an ATP rating means very little. It's the difference between being a yachtsman and sailing someone else's supertanker for a living.

Ah, a rabid union hater. That would actually work to the pilots' advantage in this case. Who would American file a restraining order against?

So you can discern whether or not the maintenance is legitimate? The sole arbiter of truth?

I have met your kind before.

We landed in PHL after a storm front passed many years ago. The conditions were challenging and we had warned the passengers the ride would not be smooth. It was not. Sure enough during deplaning a 30 something woman sneered at me as she exited; "You guys need to go back to flight school!"

We bozo pilots welcome your constructive criticism.

hbtr

Clearly a number of people have reported their observations but of course they do not have direct, first hand knowledge of the actual details of their situation. But several of the posts on this board have also reported passengers' observations of the FAs and GAs and a few maintenance personnel, all of whom have more direct knowledge of a given situation than the passengers, becoming extremely frustrated with the pilots during many of these events.

Why do you think that is?

able

All I can tell you is that brand X actively plays their employee groups against each other.

As a reserve pilot I once timed out for an international flight shortly after I arrived at the gate. It was only a one hour maintenance delay that would not normally be a problem but I was already nearing the end of my duty period when I was originally assigned. (This was shortly after Whitlow and our crew scheduling was not quite yet up to speed.)

When I was leaving the gate agent made an announcement saying "The pilot doesn't feel like working today." I went over to talk to him and he told me he knew "I had just gotten there and could not possibly be out of time." He also said he knew pilots routinely taxied around the airport several times when they were close to their duty limit to run out the clock. He said he knew this because his mangers told him so.

It's not because of snobbery that I generally don't take the word of someone who is not a pilot about the reason for a delay, cancellation etc. It's because I have been lied to and slandered on multiple occasions by those who knew I was a lazy goldbricker, because I am a pilot and.............

And P.S. No the gate agent did nothing wrong in the company's eyes. Most pilots I know don't even bother to report this kind of behavior. We just document it to defend ourselves later.

Global_Hi_Flyer

Disrespect is NOT OK whether it's coming from management, passenger, or pilot (or other employee).

That said, whether the pilots like it or not, the bad actions of a few tarnish EVERYONE. That becomes particularly true in a union environment, which promotes the perception that they're all in it together and in solidarity. Are all cops bad or all politicians bad? Is ALL of management bad? Certainly not, but the few bad ones lead to a perception that tarnishes all.

Perception IS reality to the passenger/victim of the tactics ("collateral damage").

I see a lot of the same mentality amongst the pilots at AA. Part of the Union's fight right now is to force a sale (or at the very least, force management out). I'm really not sure what they'll expect if they accomplish that, Arpey left and the same hatred exists for Horton.

hazelrah

It's not really clear what the pilots' point is. As to management, management is responsive to the BoD and the UCC. IMO the BoD and the UCC want a sale of the company; obviously a pilot contract makes AA more saleable. Read between the lines and a sale of the whole probably provides the most value to the creditors.

I believe the whole pilot against management thing is misplaced rage. Current management was handed a plate of **** consisting of an unprofitable company of antiquated work rules/non-market rates and over-promised defined benefit plans and old equipment. Management just doesn't have the math to support the pre-BK compensation enviroment.

I don't know what the end of this will be, although I'm sure that management, the UCC and the BoD have the numbers and alternatives. AA does have some assets that are worth a lot in the marketplace as follows: 1) DFW, 2) MIA and Latin America, 3) JFK, and the BA partnership,4) ORD.

In any case, I'd have to say that in the most likely scenarios the AA brand does not survive and that AA will be sold either in whole or in pieces.

diver858

Except all of the pretty girls at the consolidation dance are already taken. Any further consolidation (LCC is the most likely candidate) would be an AMR acquisition. A deal with Delta or United would face stiff regulatory hurdles, as would a non-US entity.

You forgot another prize asset - AAdvantage reward, credit card programs - highly profitable, still one of the best in the industry.

How can you say that? They are stil sitting on a pile of cash, BK is allowing AMR to shed undesirable equipment leases, new deals with Airbus, Boeing will result in one of the most modern, fuel efficient fleets in the industry. Once the dust settles with the pilots, a few fare sales will fill the back of the planes again, management has done a reasonable job maintaining long-term elite loyalty, will continue throwing a few bones this way as well.

Global_Hi_Flyer

LCC could acquire AMR if it lined up sufficient financing to do so. AMR management is not likely to make the cut regardless of the technicalities of who acquires who. The unions will make sure of that.

And even more profitable once it gets gutted the way Delta (and to a lesser extent UA) have gutted theirs.

Less likely in the current environment. Every day the disruptions go on the more the asset loses value. The only saving grace is that UA is not exactly endearing it's passengers at the moment - Delta is doing a respectable job even though it is exorbitantly priced.

diver858

IF is the operative word - not clear who would back them.
Do some research.
1. Major LCC bondholders, shareholders have taken similar positions in AMR. 2. UCCs are publicly behind management in the dispute with pilots, no signs of any daylight between the 2.
3. Dougie played all of his cards with the unions, was forced to fold his hand, now must sit on the sidelines, waiting for an invitation that may never arrive.