GadgetFreak

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A405 Safari/7534.48.3)

I guess the half full version is that it will be easy to do, and probably be easy to upgrade if you are willing to break up the trip, probably only the outbound from the US, and spend a night in Tokyo.

Spiff

Bad move, AA. Those of us willing to fly AA to Asia but have no interest in visiting Japan just lost a viable option to do so.

As others have stated, the arrival and departure times at HND just plain suck. If I can't do an easy transit like I can at NRT, then my interest in giving AA money on this route is zero. Others will be annoyed that it will be so expensive and inconvenient to get to/from HND at OMGo'clock when nothing else is running besides AA's sad flight to JFK.

Normally, I want to see AA succeed. This decision has fAAilure written all over it.

kebosabi

This also depends on AA's strategy.

Right now, AA chose the strictly O-D JFK-HND model; arrive evening 10PM, depart early morning 6AM. Nevermind that there are no other intra-Japan or onward Asia connecting flights at HND at such late evening hours or that public transit options suck to get to HND for the early morning departure since there's a four hour dead spot in public transit options between midnight and 4AM in Tokyo.

Or, AA could follow DL's model and see that the connection possibilities at HND is lucrative if they adjust their flights to an AM arrival PM departure, and rationalizing that leaving the plane all day at HND is a cost of doing business.

One thing that has yet to be discussed is to fully utilize AA/JL JBV, AA/JL metal neutrality, compounded with US-Japan Open Skies now in effect. Could AA lease out the AA 777 aircraft that arrives in HND at 5AM to JL? That way, JL has another 777 to utilize to add an additional HND-GMP/TSA/HKG/SHA flight or even utilize that AA 777 for JL's high-cap intra-Japan flights like HND-CTS or HND-OKA during the day. In exchange, JL could also lease out a JL 777 aircraft for their HND-SFO or NRT-YVR flight to AA so that AA could operate a JL metal 777 for intra-US or Canada-US flights instead of JL parking them at SFO or YVR.

Jacobin777

Sounds like an interesting (and "out-of-box" idea) but I don't think it will fly (no pun intended) as there would probably be too much cost associated with 1-2 planes. Also, it would probably be a bit confusing to pax as well.

kebosabi

I don't think it'll be that confusing; AA already contracts with JL to handle ground ops and maintenance at both NRT and HND. From a pax perspective it's nothing more different than a codeshare. JL flight number, but oh they're flying an AA plane. If anything, the JFK-HND AA 777 could also use the metal neutral oneworld livery.

AA lands at HND at 5 AM, hands the AA 777 over to JL
JL utilizes the AA 777 between 7AM-9PM for HND-GMP/TSA/HKG/SHA or HND-CTS/OKA flights during the day
JL hands back the AA 777 back over to AA for 10PM HND departure


To put in real life terms, it's like:

Bob only has the need to use his big rig between 10PM and 5AM. But he's going to be hit with a high storage cost of $1000 if he parks his big rig at the parking lot during the day.

Bob's friend, Joe, on the other hand needs an extra big rig during the day, but Joe cannot afford to buy or lease a new big rig.

Bob then approaches Joe if Joe would be willing to lease his big rig for a reduced price of $300 during the day.

Joe gets a big rig to use during the day for a reduced price and is able to gain additional revenue from operating an additional big rig during the day. Bob gets to earn an extra $300 rather than spending $1000 in storage costs.

I see this as a win-win situation that could work.

FWAAA

JAL has rights to fly HND-SFO and AA has rights to fly HND-JFK. The US government allocated the four frequencies permitted to USA-based airlines and the Japanese government allocated the four to Japanese airlines. AA applied for JFK and LAX and was awarded JFK (DL won LAX). UA applied for SFO and lost. AA and JAL can't swap their frequencies without government approval on both sides.

As I posted earlier, the premise for flying USA-HND is that there are large numbers of Tokyo O&D passengers. If HND flights are not viable without large numbers of connection opportunities at HND, then might as well fly to NRT instead. Much more important for the flight timing to permit maximum numbers of connections at the USA side than at HND.

Either AA is stupid for not doing what you advocate or AA has the data that shows your plan wouldn't be as lucrative.

That will probably never happen. Contractual issues with AA and JAL crews, training issues, etc. The joint ventures are designed so the competitors can cooperate and share profits - but sharing airplanes goes far beyond that.

Random Flyer

But haven't they had a whole bunch of 777s just sitting on the ground since last autumn due to pilot shortage? Utilisation doesn't seem to be a top concern just now. And with all these cutbacks and downgauges I just wonder what they are intending to do with all their 777s. Sell them? This mess just seems to get bigger and bigger.

GadgetFreak

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A405 Safari/7534.48.3)

But none of this changes my view that this is pretty bad for east coast based AA flyers who want to go to Asia (not Tokyo).

JDiver

It would also depend on exactly how compatible the tow 777s are - and if not so much, they would have to arrange some kind of ACMI-like arrangement, which would be quite expensive and challenging to both airlines, IMO.

I'm hoping their foot in the gate, so to speak, will also result in a timetable change - otherwise it will be very challenging for AA to make this work out, IMO.

For those up front and EXPs, I hope the change will allow AA F and oneworld Emeralds to use the JL F lounge and not just the JL Sakura Business lounge. (It's not even metal neutrality- close when JL decides to not honor oneworld lounge protocols at their own whim.)

kebosabi

It depends on which vantage point one looks at. Much like not every American lives in New York, not every Japanese lives in Tokyo.

There are a lot of connection opportunities in HND. HND is the 2nd busiest airport in Asia and the world's 5th largest airport by passenger volume. HND has tons of intra-Japan and flights to Asia.

The only thing is that all those flights depart during the daytime, not in the night time which AA chose to land. If AA wants all those connection possibilities at HND that JAL flies during the day, they need to adjust their schedules and early AM, park their planes at HND and depart in the night time. The cost of parking their planes at HND has to be considered as a cost of doing business. Or if that's not an option, figure out a way to lease their AA 777 aircraft for JL to use during the day.

NRT is just as restrictive as HND. Flights from NA can only land during the slotted hours of 1PM to 6PM. By the time a flight from NA lands, half of the day's flights have left so there's very few picking left to choose for connections. In addition, there are very few intra-Japan flights out of NRT compared to HND.

FWAAA

The pilot training bottleneck has eased now that it's been three months since the last of the mass retirements. I'm not sure you can equate a temporary inability to staff some 777s during the slow travel season (due to pilot retirements that ran ten times their normal monthly rate) to "Utilisation doesn't seem to be a top concern just now."

With ten new 777-323s on the way (with the first arriving later this year), nobody outside of AA knows exactly what will become of every existing AA 777 (of which there are 47). Perhaps AA will let some of them go in bankruptcy; perhaps AA will keep all of them.

If AA thought that kebosabi's flight times made more sense than the existing ones, then AA would adjust the timing of the HND flight. Leaving a 777 on the ground all day at an international destination isn't unheard of - S America has more than one example.

GadgetFreak

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A405 Safari/7534.48.3)

Last week as an Emerald flying on AA in first I was welcomed to the JL first lounge at NRT with no problem. Is that not the same at Haneda?

FWAAA

NRT=no problem. At HND, EXPs have not been welcome at the First Class lounge.

AAerSTL

I was given access in July 2011 without problem.

formeraa

I love how we tend to pontificate around here. Everybody talks about DL's "glorious" schedule arriving at HND at 5am, but they forget to mention it is DL's flight to/from LAX.

I strongly suggest that someone actually do the "math" of having the JFK-HND flight arrive at 5am. It would have to leave JFK at 2am (or sometime around then). How many of you are willing to leave JFK at 2am? I DIDN'T THINK SO!!!