N Fare class Premium Economy... what?
Dec 9, 2018, 3:53 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 129
N Fare class Premium Economy... what?
When/why did this horrible 70% earning N booking class appear and is there a logic to avoiding it? I'm seeing a weird mix of N and B fares for international itineraries such as JFK-TYO-BKK in Premium Economy. At the same price, some PE tickets are B fare on the BKK-TYO and N fare on the TYO-NYC, and others are N all the way. Meanwhile, some other routes with PE flights don't seem to have N booking class at all (or not yet...).
This N fare class (and also the discount business P) are really frustrating especially when other top Star Alliance carriers such as SQ have cheaper PE fares that earn 100% miles.
This N fare class (and also the discount business P) are really frustrating especially when other top Star Alliance carriers such as SQ have cheaper PE fares that earn 100% miles.
Dec 9, 2018, 5:49 am
#2
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Tokyo
Programs: JAL Metal Card (OWE), SAS Eurobonus Gold (*G), Marriott Titanium (LTP), Tokyu Hotels Platinum
Posts: 21,160
I would imagine it is used in markets where the prices for PE is at the lower end of the scale. As NH can g et quite a premium on tickets originating in Japan, I doubt you will get N here. But originating in e.g. the US where the competitive, these booking classes will probably appear It is a way of cutting cost on deep discount tickets.
There are by the way still programs that have full earning on P for ANA.
There are by the way still programs that have full earning on P for ANA.
Dec 9, 2018, 9:03 am
#3
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Tokyo
Programs: Marriott Plat, HH G,Hyatt E,*A Gold, OW Emerald.
Posts: 3,023
Why....ANA found it more profitable that way (discount premium economy = discounted mileage accrual).
When....sometime in the summer 2018 I believe.
Now what....bank those miles on another FFP other than ANA (wheretocredit link)
I usually bank them to Aegean, where a single return N class PE fare JFK-HND easily gets me halfway through requalifying for star alliance gold for the year!
When....sometime in the summer 2018 I believe.
Now what....bank those miles on another FFP other than ANA (wheretocredit link)
I usually bank them to Aegean, where a single return N class PE fare JFK-HND easily gets me halfway through requalifying for star alliance gold for the year!
Dec 9, 2018, 8:01 pm
#4
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 205
There are 2 underlying problems towards this issue
1. Transmission of message of new fare class to *A partner airlines are often slow. For example, Fare class G in NH, full flex in PEY，is still not eligible for accruals in some *A FFPs. A3 had just made NH-G eligible since Feb 2018 after I made millions of complaints.
2. NH fare class policy. NH love to make its deep discount PEY J as 70%, so many partners followed, which is not surprising.
1. Transmission of message of new fare class to *A partner airlines are often slow. For example, Fare class G in NH, full flex in PEY，is still not eligible for accruals in some *A FFPs. A3 had just made NH-G eligible since Feb 2018 after I made millions of complaints.
2. NH fare class policy. NH love to make its deep discount PEY J as 70%, so many partners followed, which is not surprising.
Dec 9, 2018, 8:04 pm
#5
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 205
Why....ANA found it more profitable that way (discount premium economy = discounted mileage accrual).
When....sometime in the summer 2018 I believe.
Now what....bank those miles on another FFP other than ANA (wheretocredit link)
I usually bank them to Aegean, where a single return N class PE fare JFK-HND easily gets me halfway through requalifying for star alliance gold for the year!
When....sometime in the summer 2018 I believe.
Now what....bank those miles on another FFP other than ANA (wheretocredit link)
I usually bank them to Aegean, where a single return N class PE fare JFK-HND easily gets me halfway through requalifying for star alliance gold for the year!
Perhaps SAS plus （fare class A or P） is a sweet spot compared to NH N if you are purely looking for A3 Gold, which is discussed in the A3 board/forum.
Dec 10, 2018, 2:53 am
#6
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Japan
Programs: BA Silver, NH SFC, JL JGC, ITA Executive, Marriott Gold, Hilton Gold
Posts: 19
ANA announced the change on 12/4, which came into effect the next day on 12/5. No heads up whatsoever...
The logic to avoiding it would be, for someone like me who flies for the sake of obtaining Super Flyers Card (or those who do the “premium point runs” every year for the sake of maintaining Diamond status)
Also note that N fare class from what I read requires Saturday night stay, does not allow changes, non-refundable, and NOT eligible for upgrade (unless you’re diamond member who can splurge twice the upgrade points on the day of flight)
Premium Economy fare especially with domestic connection to Okinawa was the go-to for us Premium Point runners. I personally favored ex-KUL which was cheaper than had you done KL run originating from Japan.
Certainly glad I got done this year...
The logic to avoiding it would be, for someone like me who flies for the sake of obtaining Super Flyers Card (or those who do the “premium point runs” every year for the sake of maintaining Diamond status)
Also note that N fare class from what I read requires Saturday night stay, does not allow changes, non-refundable, and NOT eligible for upgrade (unless you’re diamond member who can splurge twice the upgrade points on the day of flight)
Premium Economy fare especially with domestic connection to Okinawa was the go-to for us Premium Point runners. I personally favored ex-KUL which was cheaper than had you done KL run originating from Japan.
Certainly glad I got done this year...
Dec 11, 2018, 9:56 am
#7
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 129
ANA announced the change on 12/4, which came into effect the next day on 12/5. No heads up whatsoever...
The logic to avoiding it would be, for someone like me who flies for the sake of obtaining Super Flyers Card (or those who do the “premium point runs” every year for the sake of maintaining Diamond status)
Also note that N fare class from what I read requires Saturday night stay, does not allow changes, non-refundable, and NOT eligible for upgrade (unless you’re diamond member who can splurge twice the upgrade points on the day of flight)
Premium Economy fare especially with domestic connection to Okinawa was the go-to for us Premium Point runners. I personally favored ex-KUL which was cheaper than had you done KL run originating from Japan.
Certainly glad I got done this year...
The logic to avoiding it would be, for someone like me who flies for the sake of obtaining Super Flyers Card (or those who do the “premium point runs” every year for the sake of maintaining Diamond status)
Also note that N fare class from what I read requires Saturday night stay, does not allow changes, non-refundable, and NOT eligible for upgrade (unless you’re diamond member who can splurge twice the upgrade points on the day of flight)
Premium Economy fare especially with domestic connection to Okinawa was the go-to for us Premium Point runners. I personally favored ex-KUL which was cheaper than had you done KL run originating from Japan.
Certainly glad I got done this year...
Dec 11, 2018, 12:28 pm
#8
Join Date: May 2009
Location: LA, NY, SG, TK
Programs: ANA Diamond+SFC+1MM (NH*G), Hyatt Globalist, HHonors Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Penn Club of NY
Posts: 141
I believe the N fares also increase awareness and attractiveness for PY. For example, previously, purchasing PY on trans-pac flights was a hefty premium over flexible Y. For those not seeking status (with 100% vs 70$ accrual) or leisurely fliers, the premium was likely not justifiable. Going forward, it could be as low as a few hundred dollars. A more compelling proposition.
In the earlier days of PY, the cabin was typically empty and being an NH elite almost guaranteed a free upgrade. Too many free upgrades probably for ANA's liking. However, it's ironic that ANA is introducing N fares that are only a few hundred dollars more than Y fares, given that many on this forum have cited they bid several hundred dollars for PY seats and their bids didn't clear. Maybe ANA will get rid of upgrade bidding. In another post, I speculated that ANA creating a new upgradeable PY class may indicate they were planning to revamp and upgrade the PY experience - The N fare price point makes me retract that speculation...
In addition to attractive pricing and devaluing premium points accrual for those who mileage run, UA probably has something to do with it. With UA introducing its PY product, Premium Plus, and likely introducing a discount fare for it, ANA likely had to introduce a comparable fare due to their code-share flights. The UA alliance has mostly been bad news for NH elites and customers. (Remember: the UA alliance made ANA's fare fluctuate more so than before - it used to be simple, book in advance and lock in a low fare, eliminated the reservation hold feature, opened up the ANA cabin to more UA flyers, etc.)
Most of my trans-pac flights are LAX-NRT/HND. SQ operates LAX-NRT daily (SQ11/12) and looking at fares over the next several months, SQ's PY is on par with NH's PY, but accrues 100%. SQ also has cheaper discount C fares (mainly D) which accrue 125% vs NH's discount C (P) and runs several C promotions per year. I think I'll be shifting my business to SQ. In PY or C, they are consistently more pleasant than NH.
NH Diamond has also been devalued. There's rampant overcrowding at ANA Suite Lounges, especially at Haneda, and the food spread isn't particularly "first class". ANA employs cheapo tactics at dining h, where they limit certain entrees to 10-20 per day and force pax to line-up 30 mins before it opens. Even United Polaris lounges doesn't do this!
The annual gift hasn't included Rimowa luggage in 5+ years.
Who cares about boarding first on ANA? Unlike US carriers, overhead space doesn't disappear. It's more VIP to board last and have the door close after you board.
Complimentary PY will disappear in a year...
For those who think NH Diamond will no longer be achievable, there isn't too much to miss when you think about it. If you have World of Hyatt or HHonors status, I suggest staying at the Grand Hyatt or Conrad the night before HND/NRT departure and vegetating in the club lounge for as late as possible. Ha!
In the earlier days of PY, the cabin was typically empty and being an NH elite almost guaranteed a free upgrade. Too many free upgrades probably for ANA's liking. However, it's ironic that ANA is introducing N fares that are only a few hundred dollars more than Y fares, given that many on this forum have cited they bid several hundred dollars for PY seats and their bids didn't clear. Maybe ANA will get rid of upgrade bidding. In another post, I speculated that ANA creating a new upgradeable PY class may indicate they were planning to revamp and upgrade the PY experience - The N fare price point makes me retract that speculation...
In addition to attractive pricing and devaluing premium points accrual for those who mileage run, UA probably has something to do with it. With UA introducing its PY product, Premium Plus, and likely introducing a discount fare for it, ANA likely had to introduce a comparable fare due to their code-share flights. The UA alliance has mostly been bad news for NH elites and customers. (Remember: the UA alliance made ANA's fare fluctuate more so than before - it used to be simple, book in advance and lock in a low fare, eliminated the reservation hold feature, opened up the ANA cabin to more UA flyers, etc.)
Most of my trans-pac flights are LAX-NRT/HND. SQ operates LAX-NRT daily (SQ11/12) and looking at fares over the next several months, SQ's PY is on par with NH's PY, but accrues 100%. SQ also has cheaper discount C fares (mainly D) which accrue 125% vs NH's discount C (P) and runs several C promotions per year. I think I'll be shifting my business to SQ. In PY or C, they are consistently more pleasant than NH.
NH Diamond has also been devalued. There's rampant overcrowding at ANA Suite Lounges, especially at Haneda, and the food spread isn't particularly "first class". ANA employs cheapo tactics at dining h, where they limit certain entrees to 10-20 per day and force pax to line-up 30 mins before it opens. Even United Polaris lounges doesn't do this!
The annual gift hasn't included Rimowa luggage in 5+ years.
Who cares about boarding first on ANA? Unlike US carriers, overhead space doesn't disappear. It's more VIP to board last and have the door close after you board.
Complimentary PY will disappear in a year...
For those who think NH Diamond will no longer be achievable, there isn't too much to miss when you think about it. If you have World of Hyatt or HHonors status, I suggest staying at the Grand Hyatt or Conrad the night before HND/NRT departure and vegetating in the club lounge for as late as possible. Ha!
Apr 11, 2019, 11:57 pm
#9
Join Date: Sep 2017
Programs: Star Alliance
Posts: 24
I guess not much to add here but just discovered this N fair class when booking my annual Thanksgiving trip home to New York from Tokyo. Has always been 100% miles and a good opportunity to use upgrade points to business. Is still the same price this year or maybe $100 less but lose the 30% miles and can't upgrade unless using double miles really stings =( . Actually to get the same Premium Economy deal with 100% and upgrade costs ~$1,400 more now. Feel like not much value in being a Diamond any more with out the free upgrade from economy any more either. Maybe is time to just get to a million and then bank the miles and hit a new program.
May 16, 2019, 1:08 pm
#10
Join Date: May 2009
Location: LA, NY, SG, TK
Programs: ANA Diamond+SFC+1MM (NH*G), Hyatt Globalist, HHonors Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Penn Club of NY
Posts: 141
I've had a few SG legs this year and the introduction of N fares led me to book with SQ. I used to fly LAX-NRT-SIN on E fares and used upgrade points to sit in C. These E fare tickets have been hovering ~$2,300 over the last several years.
SQ has had quite a few fare sales, and coupled with American Express PLT/CEN's new discounted F/C bookings (you can now get discounted AMEX fares, no longer need to buy one full fare, get second for free), I've been able to snag SQ LAX-SIN for ~$2,600 on D fares, accrues 125% on NH...!
SQ C > NH C, more similar to NH F for food quality and service, and if you snag a bulkhead, SQ C is just as spacious as NH F.
NH - Your N fares have cost at least one MM'ers business for some transpac travel!
SQ has had quite a few fare sales, and coupled with American Express PLT/CEN's new discounted F/C bookings (you can now get discounted AMEX fares, no longer need to buy one full fare, get second for free), I've been able to snag SQ LAX-SIN for ~$2,600 on D fares, accrues 125% on NH...!
SQ C > NH C, more similar to NH F for food quality and service, and if you snag a bulkhead, SQ C is just as spacious as NH F.
NH - Your N fares have cost at least one MM'ers business for some transpac travel!