Alaska Pilot Q&A Thread

Old Apr 17, 2009, 12:34 am
  #151  
 
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Originally Posted by tony2x
I work in IT and whenever I watch any film or TV show that has a computer-related plotline I sit there and chuckle away at the ridiculousness of it all. 24 comes to mind, the things those CTU folks can do with a USB pen drive and a few hasty stabs at a keyboard is quite impressive!

Do you do the same? I was watching Lost the other day and there is a scene (spoilers for those that have not seen season 5 yet) where Captain Lapidus (are you sure that isn't you AlaskaCoho?) practically glides a 737-700 to a nice controlled landing. I sat there looking at the flight deck and interior set of the 'plane and quickly noticed that the interior and flightdeck that did not fit in a NG737. The first class seats though did look like they had been pulled out of a AS 734!

SPOILER ALERT! Lost Season 5 - Episode 6 - 737-700 landing

I'd like to point out that the YouTube video was incorrectly titled as 738s have 2 over-wing exits each side.

Do you find yourself doing the same, if so, what are some of your favourite ridiculous aviation related scenes in film/TV?
My biggest beef with that scene was that they were sending a 737 lax-guam... hell, i don't think a 737 can do hnl-guam
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Old Apr 17, 2009, 12:43 am
  #152  
 
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Originally Posted by tony2x
do you think that with the right instruction and conditions that someone with no flying experience could land the jet?
Yes, I've seen it done, although in a Level D simulator. So the stress compared to suddenly having to land a plane with 100 people wasn't there.

As for me, I have GA flying experience, and the first time I flew a jet (also a level D simulator) I was able to take off and land successfully without any guidance. But I also had general knowledge of approach speeds for such an aircraft.

There was a mythbusters episode about that scenario too. I believe without instructions they crashed. By being talked down by ATC they were able to land. Again, in a simulator.

Originally Posted by jaboyd1
I have looked at ERAU, but from what I can gather, the extra cash required is a big deterrent, not to mention the limited fields you can study there.
I looked at ERAU too, but two things made me decide against it. First, the cost. It's very expensive. Secondly, and possibly more importantly, were the degrees. ERAU would be a good school if you know for sure you want to be an airline pilot, and are relatively sure you aren't going to get lose an eye or leg. A degree in piloting somewhat limits job opportunities. Most airlines don't actually care what your degree is in, as long as you have a four year degree in something. Just my opinion.
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Old Apr 17, 2009, 1:23 am
  #153  
 
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Originally Posted by Duckouttahere
But at least the FO repeated that the captain had turned off the autopilot and had control. Isn't that common for aircrew to repeat things especially with ATC? To avoid miscommunication?
Yeah, right after which he announces "full right rudder" ... which, if executed at that airspeed...hmmm... maybe he doesnt having a rudder.
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Old Apr 17, 2009, 10:08 am
  #154  
 
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Originally Posted by robertlaird
In my dreams if something happened to the flight crew, I would take a stab at landing the big one with the tower talking me in...
Originally Posted by AlaskaCoho
Forgive me but it ain't mine!
Here's why, like the indians in a western, the Captain always dies man.

Unintentional King Air pilot: An interview with Doug White
By Dave Hirschman
http://www.aopa.org/aircraft/article...WT.mc_sect=tts

Doug White realized the only thing he could do was Fly the plane.
Doug White was having a tough week.

He and his family were returning home to Monroe, La., from Marco Island, Fla., where they had just attended his brothers funeral.

White, 56, a private pilot with about 230 hours flight time in single-engine Cessna 172s sat in the right seat of a chartered King Air 200 with his wife and two teenaged daughters in the passenger cabin. White, owner of an equipment leasing company, had learned to fly in 1991 but set flying aside immediately after obtaining a private pilot certificate.

Audio Recording
Click here to listen to the ATC audio recording.
In January, hed resumed flying and had logged 150 hours in preparation for an instrument rating he plans to earn this spring. Joe Cabuk, a charter pilot, was in command of the King Air during the Easter Sunday flight and guided it north from Marco Island.

Id only been in the King Air once before , said White who had recently bought the aircraft and leased it back to an air charter firm. I was interested in listening to air traffic control and looking out the window and learning about the IFR system. And I dont know why I did this, but I remember asking Joe what button to push to use the radio.

Less than 10 minutes after departure, Cabuk was finishing the climb checklist, and the airplane was on autopilot. The aircraft was rising through a thin layer of clouds over the gulf when the former U.S. Air Force pilot was suddenly stricken.

I looked over and his chin was on his chest, White said. He made a loud, guttural sound, kind of a groan, and his eyes rolled back, and his hands never left his lap. It was quick, it was sudden, and it was final.

The airplane was climbing about 1,500 feet per minute, and White saw that 10,000 feet appeared to be selected on the autopilot display on the instrument panel. White anticipated the King Air would level off at that altitude, but it kept climbing steadily.

White pushed the radio transmit button and called Miami Center. King Air Five Five Nine Delta Whiskey, Im declaring an emergency, he remembers saying. I need to stop this climb, and I need a King Air pilot on the line.

Controllers at Miami Center and Ft. Myers Approach got a qualified King Air pilot on the telephone and relayed information to White telling him how to disengage the autopilot and fly the twin-engine turboprop.

White clicked the autopilot off at about 17,000 feet and tried to level the airplane, but it was trimmed to climb and required an extraordinary amount of forward pressure on the yoke. White tried to trim the airplane using the manual elevator trim wheel, but it was partially blocked by the deceased pilots right leg. Once he got that task accomplished, ATC asked White to descend to 11,000 feet.

He reached out with his left hand and pulled the throttles back slightly.

I didnt know anything about torque or rpm settings, he said. I had an attitude indicator, an airspeed indicator, and a directional gyro in front of me, and thats all I used to fly the airplane. The rest I didnt pay much attention to.

The King Air was travelling about 220 KIAS, and White started a left turn as directed by ATC.

He yelled for his wife Terry to come to the cockpit and let her know what was happening. He was concerned the deceased pilot might slump forward against the control yoke and asked her to try to remove him from the left seat. But there was no way she could lift his more-than-200-pound body from the cramped confines, so she tried to cinch his shoulder harness tight to keep him upright.

White told her to pray real hard with their daughters as he tried to land.

White had never flown any airplane from the right seat. He gradually descended to about 5,000 feet in clear air well out over the ocean as controllers guided him toward Fort Myers and its 12,000-foot-long Runway 6.

I dont know if they were getting everyone out of my way, or getting me out of everyone elses way, he said.

The King Airs indicated speed varied between 220 knots and 140 knots as White made throttle adjustments. At one point he sought to re-engage the autopilot but changed his mind when it began to turn toward a pre-selected heading.

Heck with that, he remembers thinking. Im just going to hand fly.

White saw the airport about eight miles away.

ATC told me Its all yours.

White lowered the landing gear and got three green lights. He added approach flaps then full flaps, and controllers warned him to avoid slowing too much. White remembers being surprised that there were only two flap settings. The Cessna he flies has four.

They said do NOT get below 110 knots, he said.

Automated warnings told him the plane was 500 feet above the ground, and White ignored a series of other cautions and alarms.

There were buzzers, amber lights, horns: It was like a circus. The only thing I was concentrating on was keeping the airspeed up and the wings level. You know, just fly the plane.

A large group of emergency vehicles had gathered near the runway, and White said he was surprised at the cluster of brightly blinking lights as the runway came into view.

The landing itself was one of Whites best.

It was a greaser, to be honest, he said. It didnt jump or skip. It just set down and stopped in 3,500 feet or less. I asked which taxiway they wanted me to use.

The King Air was quickly surrounded by emergency vehicles, and White said he didnt know how to stop the engines.

Im surrounded by cops, ambulances, and firemen in protective suits and I didnt know how to shut the plane down.

He got advice over the radio and soon had the props feathered and the fuel supply cut off. His wife and daughters were shaken by the hour-long ordeal, but otherwise unharmed.

My wife was shaking the whole time, White said. My baby squalled, and my 18-year-old threw up.

White said he plans to finish his instrument training in the next few weeks, then get some experience in a complex, single-engine Bonanza before moving up to a piston twin such a Baron.

Eventually, Id like to fly the King Air again but only with the proper experience and training, he said.

White deflects praise for his handling of the emergency.

You just focus your fear and go into a zone, he said. Theres no time to chit-chat, or lock up. Just git er done.

White also said Cabuk, the deceased pilot, set an excellent example.

He was a real professional pilot and a great guy, White said. If I could be half the pilot he was, Id be tickled.

ATC audio recording of the incident
April 14, 2009
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Old Apr 17, 2009, 2:51 pm
  #155  
 
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Originally Posted by tony2x

...

I have booked up my simulator experience for June when I am back in the UK. I plumped for the 777 because the flightdeck looks the most fancy and given your description of the realism I am now even more excited. It was expensive but from the sound of it, worth every penny.

...
Just out of curiosity what simulator experiences are available here in the western US and what's the ballpark figure for cost?
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Old Apr 18, 2009, 6:31 pm
  #156  
 
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Originally Posted by AlaskaCoho
Unintentional King Air pilot: An interview with Doug White
This makes me wonder - what if it happened on a commercial flight that both Captain and FO were incapacitated or worse, purely by accident? I realize this is, thankfully, exceedingly unlikely, but I'm curious. How would that plane be safely put on the ground?
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Old Apr 18, 2009, 9:44 pm
  #157  
 
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Originally Posted by ttjoseph
This makes me wonder - what if it happened on a commercial flight that both Captain and FO were incapacitated or worse, purely by accident? I realize this is, thankfully, exceedingly unlikely, but I'm curious. How would that plane be safely put on the ground?
Its not any easy answer. Flight 93 in PA comes to mind. Its not easy to land any large jet. A lot of the landing techniques are not the ones used to land light aircraft. The best hope would be to have a pilot of any kind and have them use the auto land feature of the autopilot. But then after you are on the ground going 150kts you still have to stop the jet manually. So lets just hope this never happens.
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Old Apr 18, 2009, 10:24 pm
  #158  
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Originally Posted by AlaskaCoho
Its not any easy answer. Flight 93 in PA comes to mind. Its not easy to land any large jet. A lot of the landing techniques are not the ones used to land light aircraft. The best hope would be to have a pilot of any kind and have them use the auto land feature of the autopilot. But then after you are on the ground going 150kts you still have to stop the jet manually. So lets just hope this never happens.
ok to feed into this question. Lets say a 737 pilot is a pax on another jet say 747, 767, A320, etc. Would they be able to pretty much assume control of the A/C in an emergency and land safely??? While obviously each jet is different I would assume that every jet still has some of the same basic controls and same basic procedures. Certainly better odds than the C172 pilot pax taking control
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Old Apr 18, 2009, 11:22 pm
  #159  
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Originally Posted by ANC
ok to feed into this question. Lets say a 737 pilot is a pax on another jet say 747, 767, A320, etc. Would they be able to pretty much assume control of the A/C in an emergency and land safely??? While obviously each jet is different I would assume that every jet still has some of the same basic controls and same basic procedures. Certainly better odds than the C172 pilot pax taking control
*my guess* is that if its boeing to boeing... more similar of a platform then boeing to airbus... so marginally easier... - and depending on the generation of an A/C... a 2 crew vs. 3 crew like a 727- better...
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Old Apr 20, 2009, 9:41 am
  #160  
 
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Originally Posted by ANC
ok to feed into this question. Lets say a 737 pilot is a pax on another jet say 747, 767, A320, etc. Would they be able to pretty much assume control of the A/C in an emergency and land safely??? While obviously each jet is different I would assume that every jet still has some of the same basic controls and same basic procedures. Certainly better odds than the C172 pilot pax taking control
I would expect that any pilot qualified to fly one of those Jets, really any large multi-engine jet could, from a cold start, land another large jet. May not be pretty but could be done.

In fact I'll go one better, the key is the autopilot. They all have their differences but they also all have more similarities. So I would say that anyone who has been trained and flown any aircraft with a complex autoflight system could get a jet on the ground.

The only caveat would be as long as they had a 8,000 foot runway. Anything less and it takes specific techniques that would require a bit of luck and a lot of brakes.
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Old Apr 20, 2009, 11:11 am
  #161  
 
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Originally Posted by AlaskaCoho
I would expect that any pilot qualified to fly one of those Jets, really any large multi-engine jet could, from a cold start, land another large jet. May not be pretty but could be done.

In fact I'll go one better, the key is the autopilot. They all have their differences but they also all have more similarities. So I would say that anyone who has been trained and flown any aircraft with a complex autoflight system could get a jet on the ground.

The only caveat would be as long as they had a 8,000 foot runway. Anything less and it takes specific techniques that would require a bit of luck and a lot of brakes.
To add to that... I believe all airbus planes use the exact same cockpit and while there is some amount of cross-training required, it is minimal and a A319 pilot could jump in a A380 without a major concern. Airbus uses that as a major selling point to airlines. Boeing does not have that with any of their flight decks and I think there are even sufficient differences been some of the 737 variants to require extra training?
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Old Apr 20, 2009, 8:56 pm
  #162  
 
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Originally Posted by brarrr
To add to that... I believe all airbus planes use the exact same cockpit and while there is some amount of cross-training required, it is minimal and a A319 pilot could jump in a A380 without a major concern. Airbus uses that as a major selling point to airlines. Boeing does not have that with any of their flight decks and I think there are even sufficient differences been some of the 737 variants to require extra training?
Tis true about the Airbus, except the new 380. It is a separate type rating and even though each Airbus is on a single type rating, one would still have to undergo what we call in the industry, "differences" training. Differences walk the pilots thru the various differences between systems onboard the different jet without requiring them to get a whole new type rating.

All 737 only require differences same as the Airbus fleet. However the ahh changes between say the 767/757 and the NG variant of the 737 are very cosmetic. The pressurization system is the same as are the autoflight system with some interesting small insignificant "differences". The point I made before I think is still valid.

Lets just not keep talking about what would happing if I (ME) was absent form the flight deck. It makes me nervous, maybe giving me some moojew bad Karma or something. Both flight deck members will never desert you.I swear! There is a lot of wood to knock on up there honest.
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Old Apr 20, 2009, 10:53 pm
  #163  
 
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C'mon AlaskaCoho....it is all "Boeing Brown". Regardless if I am on board, I will have your back. Of course, you will pay homage to the Army.
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Old Apr 21, 2009, 8:29 pm
  #164  
 
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Originally Posted by AlaskaCoho
Lets just not keep talking about what would happing if I (ME) was absent form the flight deck. It makes me nervous, maybe giving me some moojew bad Karma or something. Both flight deck members will never desert you….I swear! There is a lot of wood to knock on up there honest.
Agreed, I hope none of us (no matter how much we would secretly enjoy the adventure) ever have to 'upgrade' to the flight deck mid-flight! Besides considering just how good AS is at keeping my G&T refreshed, you wouldn't want to ask me to step in for any such emergency!

PS. I'm at SEA right now in the BR and I noticed Tinkerbelle out on the tarmac. It sure is a pretty plane!
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Old Apr 21, 2009, 8:49 pm
  #165  
 
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Originally Posted by tony2x
Agreed, I hope none of us (no matter how much we would secretly enjoy the adventure) ever have to 'upgrade' to the flight deck mid-flight! Besides considering just how good AS is at keeping my G&T refreshed, you wouldn't want to ask me to step in for any such emergency!

PS. I'm at SEA right now in the BR and I noticed Tinkerbelle out on the tarmac. It sure is a pretty plane!
Nice!
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