What's FAIR compensation????
Jan 16, 2003, 4:37 pm
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Port Angeles, WA, USA Unwanted by AS, Hilton-Diamond, Starwood Platnum
Posts: 758
What's FAIR compensation????
I would like some opinions as to what you would consider to be Fair Compensation in the following situation.
You are sitting in a Horizon Air DH-8 (Alaska's commuter company) and the pilot is going through the final check before backing away from the gate.
The FA receives a call from the Gate Agent after a few minutes it is apparent that the FA is refusing to do something the GA wants her to. She hangs up and announces that flight is canceled and the GA will be down in a second to explain why. GA shows up and declares the plane has developed a mechanical problem and is grounded indefinitely. As I get off and retrieve
my carry-on I glance back and see two new pilots stow their luggage and board the plane. I stay alert back up at the gate to see just what is going on and after 15 minutes I observe the same gate agent telling a large group of people (more than 5) to go down gate 6 and board. Hum, that's where my indefinitely grounded due to mechanical problems aircraft just happens to
still be sitting. The plane loads and 15 minutes later "gasp" those pilots take that plane load of people up in the sky in that very same unsafe grounded airplane. Hum, me thinks the GA lied about the plane so said airline would not have to compensate me for a bump. I go and ask if they would like to
provide me with a free ticket since I have been bumped. I'm directed to the customer service desk where they have this line expertly memorized "No Sir we can't do that." I ask for a board room pass to pass the 3 and 1/2 hours till the next flight. Same response as above. finally they gave me a $25 voucher with the statement that they weren't even required to do that. I missed an important business meeting because of this bump. So is $25 adequate and fair compensation in this situation? If not what do you think is adequate compensation?
Thanks in advance for sharing your opinion.
------------------
"A day without Points is like a day without SUNSHINE"
You are sitting in a Horizon Air DH-8 (Alaska's commuter company) and the pilot is going through the final check before backing away from the gate.
The FA receives a call from the Gate Agent after a few minutes it is apparent that the FA is refusing to do something the GA wants her to. She hangs up and announces that flight is canceled and the GA will be down in a second to explain why. GA shows up and declares the plane has developed a mechanical problem and is grounded indefinitely. As I get off and retrieve
my carry-on I glance back and see two new pilots stow their luggage and board the plane. I stay alert back up at the gate to see just what is going on and after 15 minutes I observe the same gate agent telling a large group of people (more than 5) to go down gate 6 and board. Hum, that's where my indefinitely grounded due to mechanical problems aircraft just happens to
still be sitting. The plane loads and 15 minutes later "gasp" those pilots take that plane load of people up in the sky in that very same unsafe grounded airplane. Hum, me thinks the GA lied about the plane so said airline would not have to compensate me for a bump. I go and ask if they would like to
provide me with a free ticket since I have been bumped. I'm directed to the customer service desk where they have this line expertly memorized "No Sir we can't do that." I ask for a board room pass to pass the 3 and 1/2 hours till the next flight. Same response as above. finally they gave me a $25 voucher with the statement that they weren't even required to do that. I missed an important business meeting because of this bump. So is $25 adequate and fair compensation in this situation? If not what do you think is adequate compensation?
Thanks in advance for sharing your opinion.
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"A day without Points is like a day without SUNSHINE"
Jan 16, 2003, 4:49 pm
#2
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Seattle, WA USA
Programs: FlyingBlue Silver; Air Canada 25K; Hilton Diamond; Marriott Lifetime Platinum
Posts: 456
My questions to you is, what reason did they give you for your aircraft taking off 15 minutes after you being told to get off due to a mechanical problem? If your story is as obvious a lie as you're making it out to be, than of course an explanation is due, and I would also think something other than a $25 voucher is reasonable to expect.
Jan 16, 2003, 5:14 pm
#3
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,617
Compensation is required by law only when you are “bumped” from a flight that is oversold. Airlines are not required to compensate passengers when flights are delayed or canceled. That said, what you describe appears to make a mockery of Horizon's (alleged) Customer Service Commitment. Here's a related part of the (alleged) CSC:
http://www.alaskaair.com/www2/compan...itment_qx6.asp
You might want to refer to it corresponding with Horizon over the issue. Here's a contact address:
http://www.alaskaair.com/www2/compan...tment_qx16.asp
Any compensation or consideration would be a matter between you and Horizon.
btw here's info on how to file a complaint about an airline with the DOT:
http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/problems.htm
Note that although the ACPD does not mediate individual consumer complaints, all complaints are entered in DOT's computerized aviation industry monitoring system, and are charged to the company in question in the monthly Air Travel Consumer Report. This report is distributed to the industry and made available to the news media and the general public so that consumers and air travel companies can compare the complaint records of individual airlines and tour operators. These complaints are reviewed to determine the extent to which carriers are in compliance with federal aviation consumer protection regulations. This system also serves as a basis for rulemaking, legislation and research.
Unfortunately Horizon isn't one of the carriers that gets ranked in the monthly Air Travel Consumer Report (Alaska is though). However it can still be useful to lodge a complaint.
http://www.alaskaair.com/www2/compan...itment_qx6.asp
You might want to refer to it corresponding with Horizon over the issue. Here's a contact address:
http://www.alaskaair.com/www2/compan...tment_qx16.asp
Any compensation or consideration would be a matter between you and Horizon.
btw here's info on how to file a complaint about an airline with the DOT:
http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/problems.htm
Note that although the ACPD does not mediate individual consumer complaints, all complaints are entered in DOT's computerized aviation industry monitoring system, and are charged to the company in question in the monthly Air Travel Consumer Report. This report is distributed to the industry and made available to the news media and the general public so that consumers and air travel companies can compare the complaint records of individual airlines and tour operators. These complaints are reviewed to determine the extent to which carriers are in compliance with federal aviation consumer protection regulations. This system also serves as a basis for rulemaking, legislation and research.
Unfortunately Horizon isn't one of the carriers that gets ranked in the monthly Air Travel Consumer Report (Alaska is though). However it can still be useful to lodge a complaint.
Jan 16, 2003, 5:19 pm
#4
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Port Angeles, WA, USA Unwanted by AS, Hilton-Diamond, Starwood Platnum
Posts: 758
After being shuffled around to the Customer "No Sir" Service Desk their response was simply. "That's all we can do for you". They never actually addressed the fact the same plane took off. Oh they did say "that's not a bump" after all at that point it was gone so how could I prove it. They did offer to give me the address of Glenn Johnson, Senior Vice President of Customer "No Sir" Service. I wrote a detailed letter and today received a response from Jessica Smith who wrote "our tariffs allow the flexability to make aircraft adjustments," She also has the company line down for each of my three request "No Sir we can't do that" I asked for a free ticket for the bump, a couple of board room passes for the next time I get bumped and an upgrade from MVP to MVP Gold because they LIED and I had to waste my time writing them. She did say they were enclosing TWO $75 vouchers. There was ONE in the envelope. I have flown Horizon Air once so far this year and have 3 more trips booked and paid for in the next 3 months. Evidently Horizon doesn't want me anymore. I guess they would prefer that customers that don't want to be lied to just drive to Seattle and take SW which is usually cheaper anyway.
Jan 16, 2003, 5:32 pm
#5
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Port Angeles, WA, USA Unwanted by AS, Hilton-Diamond, Starwood Platnum
Posts: 758
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Quokka:
what you describe appears to make a mockery of Horizon's (alleged) Customer Service Commitment. Here's a related part of the (alleged) CSC:
http://www.alaskaair.com/www2/compan...itment_qx6.asp</font>
what you describe appears to make a mockery of Horizon's (alleged) Customer Service Commitment. Here's a related part of the (alleged) CSC:
http://www.alaskaair.com/www2/compan...itment_qx6.asp</font>
[This message has been edited by Superd1 (edited 01-16-2003).]
Jan 16, 2003, 6:45 pm
#6
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: SJC
Programs: AA EXP
Posts: 3,686
I'd be outraged if this happened to me. I'm outraged for you!
I would express regret that rather than just cancelling the flight and using the equipment for other purposes, that they felt the need to lie and misrepresent the situation. That doesn't lend a passenger confidence in dealing with the airline, and certainly, is not the attitude that Alaska/Horizon wish to project.
Steve
I would express regret that rather than just cancelling the flight and using the equipment for other purposes, that they felt the need to lie and misrepresent the situation. That doesn't lend a passenger confidence in dealing with the airline, and certainly, is not the attitude that Alaska/Horizon wish to project.
Steve
Jan 16, 2003, 6:52 pm
#7
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Seattle WA, USA
Programs: Hilton Diamond, Marriott LT Plat, AS Lounge
Posts: 3,478
Superd1, the guy in Seattle you're thinking about may be Herb Weisbaum. He used to do consumer segments for KIRO TV, but I'm not sure if he still works for them. I've seen him do spots on the CBS Network, so he may have moved up.
Sorry about what happened to you. There's a thread on one of the other airline forums (can't remember which one) about gate agents lying to customers. I know I had one UA gate agent lie to me without even making much effort to cover up the fact that he was lying. But that's another story. And in that case I had already decided to stop flying UA for a while, so I didn't take the time to do anything about it.
Good luck.
Sorry about what happened to you. There's a thread on one of the other airline forums (can't remember which one) about gate agents lying to customers. I know I had one UA gate agent lie to me without even making much effort to cover up the fact that he was lying. But that's another story. And in that case I had already decided to stop flying UA for a while, so I didn't take the time to do anything about it.
Good luck.
Jan 16, 2003, 7:15 pm
#8
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Portland, Oregon
Programs: Hilton Platinum, Alaska MVP Gold
Posts: 2,363
This same type of event happened to me a few years back on an America West flight. It was supposed to be PDX-PHX-DFW. Same plane, just one stop.
The flight PDX-PHX was fine, then somehow the plane developed mechanical difficulties on the ground in Phoenix and they made us get off the plane. Soon as the continuing passengers get off they announce the flight to Sacramento is now boarding?
Huh? What? I cried foul. The several of us who were now stranded were inciteful. We all got in "trouble" for causing havoc at the gate because we told the Sacramento passengers that the plane was mechanically defective.
Basically, to make a long story short, America West didn't care. The end all was we could either continue on to Dallas 4 hours later OR they'd offer to cancel our itineraries and give us our money back, which would have been less helfpul since we were in a city we never intended to be in.
Bottom line I was told was that I was contracted to get to Dallas. They'd get me to Dallas, 4 hours later than I was supposed to be, and the plane issue was not a guarantee of the same plane. They did have a mechanical problem that day with a plane and they didn't have to use the same one we were on to continue the flight, period.
They did give me some $7 meal voucher.
After that I argued like hell with their corporate office and they sent me some silly discount certificate.
This was in the day where it was common for America West to cancel about 10% of its daily flights. Since then I've understood it to be changed a bit, but I've never gone back.
My lesson is that this happens. I think after the plane is boarded is a really crappy way to do it. Obviously the supervisors on duty in the operations area made a call. It is too bad that we can never take out our rage on those folks, since they made the call.
If you get something for it other than a silly voucher, I'd be surprised. But you can try.
Maybe file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau or something and see what happens. That, I've never tried.
The flight PDX-PHX was fine, then somehow the plane developed mechanical difficulties on the ground in Phoenix and they made us get off the plane. Soon as the continuing passengers get off they announce the flight to Sacramento is now boarding?
Huh? What? I cried foul. The several of us who were now stranded were inciteful. We all got in "trouble" for causing havoc at the gate because we told the Sacramento passengers that the plane was mechanically defective.
Basically, to make a long story short, America West didn't care. The end all was we could either continue on to Dallas 4 hours later OR they'd offer to cancel our itineraries and give us our money back, which would have been less helfpul since we were in a city we never intended to be in.
Bottom line I was told was that I was contracted to get to Dallas. They'd get me to Dallas, 4 hours later than I was supposed to be, and the plane issue was not a guarantee of the same plane. They did have a mechanical problem that day with a plane and they didn't have to use the same one we were on to continue the flight, period.
They did give me some $7 meal voucher.
After that I argued like hell with their corporate office and they sent me some silly discount certificate.
This was in the day where it was common for America West to cancel about 10% of its daily flights. Since then I've understood it to be changed a bit, but I've never gone back.
My lesson is that this happens. I think after the plane is boarded is a really crappy way to do it. Obviously the supervisors on duty in the operations area made a call. It is too bad that we can never take out our rage on those folks, since they made the call.
If you get something for it other than a silly voucher, I'd be surprised. But you can try.
Maybe file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau or something and see what happens. That, I've never tried.
Jan 16, 2003, 10:47 pm
#9
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Programs: AS MVP, Elevate, AAdvantage, Mileage Plus
Posts: 1,992
Alaska/Horizon passengers are supposed to receive an "AirCare kit" whenever they cannot be transported to their final destination within 2 hours of schedule (weather or force majeure excluded). The kit includes a snack/meal voucher ($5-$12 depending on the time of day), a $25 flight credit or mileage certificate (can't recall number of miles), and a 3-minute long-distance calling card.
Personally, I don't think $30 compensation is very generous for a delay or cancellation exceeding two hours, but having never been in such a situation, I don't know if Alaska sometimes is more generous.
Personally, I don't think $30 compensation is very generous for a delay or cancellation exceeding two hours, but having never been in such a situation, I don't know if Alaska sometimes is more generous.
Jan 16, 2003, 11:24 pm
#10
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Port Angeles, WA, USA Unwanted by AS, Hilton-Diamond, Starwood Platnum
Posts: 758
What angers me in this situation is not the delay. What angers me is that they yanked us off the plane after we were already on it (less than 5 minutes from take off) but even worse the Gate Agent came down and outright lied about why the flight was canceled. Couple that with a total unwillingness to do anything to try and indicate that they would like me to continue to use their service. It was only after I pressed that they finally offered the Customer "No SIR we don't" Care packet.
Several weeks later I was delayed for and hour and a half in Portland due to SEA being shut down when the TSA agent fell asleep at the switch. This caused us to miss our connecting flight which meant another three and a half hours and that flight was an hour late do to the back log (total 6 hours). I totally understood that and that things happen. No lies just honest information about a situation that was out of there control.
Several weeks later I was delayed for and hour and a half in Portland due to SEA being shut down when the TSA agent fell asleep at the switch. This caused us to miss our connecting flight which meant another three and a half hours and that flight was an hour late do to the back log (total 6 hours). I totally understood that and that things happen. No lies just honest information about a situation that was out of there control.
Jan 17, 2003, 1:09 am
#11
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 5,956
Superd1 -
Is this the same incident?
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/000965.html
While I don't believe that this would qualify for compensation as "being bumped", since technically they cancelled your flight, I would guess that you would deserve a little something better than what you got. They claimed it was a mechanical cancellation, when actually it was a cancellation to suit company convenience. It sounds like maybe they had a flight, absent a plane, that maybe had more passengers on it and needed the plane more for those folks than for the CLM flight. It's an unfortunate call but it happens at every airline from time to time. I still believe you would be entitled to something more fair than what you got, although I don't know that it warrants a free upgrade to MVP Gold. Can you imagine if they comped elite status to everyone that had something go wrong. Everyone would be MVP or MVP Gold.
[This message has been edited by AS Flyer (edited 01-17-2003).]
Is this the same incident?
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/000965.html
While I don't believe that this would qualify for compensation as "being bumped", since technically they cancelled your flight, I would guess that you would deserve a little something better than what you got. They claimed it was a mechanical cancellation, when actually it was a cancellation to suit company convenience. It sounds like maybe they had a flight, absent a plane, that maybe had more passengers on it and needed the plane more for those folks than for the CLM flight. It's an unfortunate call but it happens at every airline from time to time. I still believe you would be entitled to something more fair than what you got, although I don't know that it warrants a free upgrade to MVP Gold. Can you imagine if they comped elite status to everyone that had something go wrong. Everyone would be MVP or MVP Gold.
[This message has been edited by AS Flyer (edited 01-17-2003).]
Jan 17, 2003, 5:10 am
#12
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Port Angeles, WA, USA Unwanted by AS, Hilton-Diamond, Starwood Platnum
Posts: 758
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by AS Flyer:
Superd1 -
While I don't believe that this would qualify for compensation as "being bumped", since technically they cancelled your flight, I would guess that you would deserve a little something better than what you got. They claimed it was a mechanical cancellation, when actually it was a cancellation to suit company convenience. It sounds like maybe they had a flight, absent a plane, that maybe had more passengers on it and needed the plane more for those folks than for the CLM flight. It's an unfortunate call but it happens at every airline from time to time. I still believe you would be entitled to something more fair than what you got, although I don't know that it warrants a free upgrade to MVP Gold. Can you imagine if they comped elite status to everyone that had something go wrong. Everyone would be MVP or MVP Gold.
</font>
Superd1 -
While I don't believe that this would qualify for compensation as "being bumped", since technically they cancelled your flight, I would guess that you would deserve a little something better than what you got. They claimed it was a mechanical cancellation, when actually it was a cancellation to suit company convenience. It sounds like maybe they had a flight, absent a plane, that maybe had more passengers on it and needed the plane more for those folks than for the CLM flight. It's an unfortunate call but it happens at every airline from time to time. I still believe you would be entitled to something more fair than what you got, although I don't know that it warrants a free upgrade to MVP Gold. Can you imagine if they comped elite status to everyone that had something go wrong. Everyone would be MVP or MVP Gold.
</font>
Up here about 1/3rd of the business people I know absolutely refuse to fly Horizon due to some horror story experience of being let down. I have been a strong vocal advocate and have probably gotten 15 to 20 people to sign up for the AS Mileage program. In additon I have about 30 employees that I encourage to use the local service rather than drive to Seattle where they frequently use a different airline. I have 10 people that ask me to e-mail them when I see a fun trip or a bonus that AS is offering that they might take advantage of. two weekends ago I convinced a couple of friends to pop down to Portland for a 3 day weekend, just for the fun of it. We got stuck in that mess mentioned in the post above. All this to say that I want AS/Horizon to make me feel good about them again so that I can continue to recommend them. Right now I feel like joining that 1/3rd that won't fly Horizon. At this point I'd settle for a couple $125 vouchers and use of the board room for a year. (surely that wouldn't crowd the new improved board room to much?)
Don't you work for AS? How does someone get through to someone that actually cares? e-mail me if you don't want to post an answer.
Jan 17, 2003, 8:32 am
#13
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Programs: AS MVP, Elevate, AAdvantage, Mileage Plus
Posts: 1,992
You know, I have to agree with you about the comparison between involuntary denied boarding and a flight cancellation. As far as I'm concerned, if you check in for your flight at the required time and the airline does not get you to your final destination within X hours of schedule due to controllable issues, it shouldn't matter whether the cause was overbooking or flight cancellation/delay.
Unfortunately, this is not generally how the airline industry works. The strict rules for involuntary denied boarding compensation are probably meant to serve as negative reinforcement for the airlines, encouraging them to manage loads and solicit volunteers. As far as flight delays or cancellations, there isn't much an airline can do to reduce them beyond a certain point.
From the contract of carriage: "If you are denied boarding involuntarily, you are entitled to a payment of 'denied boarding compensation' from the airline unless...2) you are denied boarding because the flight is cancelled"
Unfortunately, this is not generally how the airline industry works. The strict rules for involuntary denied boarding compensation are probably meant to serve as negative reinforcement for the airlines, encouraging them to manage loads and solicit volunteers. As far as flight delays or cancellations, there isn't much an airline can do to reduce them beyond a certain point.
From the contract of carriage: "If you are denied boarding involuntarily, you are entitled to a payment of 'denied boarding compensation' from the airline unless...2) you are denied boarding because the flight is cancelled"
Jan 17, 2003, 10:11 am
#15
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 5,956
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Superd1:
AS Flyer, I wasn't asking for the MVP Gold because they had to cancel the flight. I was asking for the Gold because they LIED and I felt that a show of good faith might be appropriate. I asked for the two tickets because they canceled the flight and I felt although it was not technically a bump due to a full flight the result was no different.
Up here about 1/3rd of the business people I know absolutely refuse to fly Horizon due to some horror story experience of being let down. I have been a strong vocal advocate and have probably gotten 15 to 20 people to sign up for the AS Mileage program. In additon I have about 30 employees that I encourage to use the local service rather than drive to Seattle where they frequently use a different airline. I have 10 people that ask me to e-mail them when I see a fun trip or a bonus that AS is offering that they might take advantage of. two weekends ago I convinced a couple of friends to pop down to Portland for a 3 day weekend, just for the fun of it. We got stuck in that mess mentioned in the post above. All this to say that I want AS/Horizon to make me feel good about them again so that I can continue to recommend them. Right now I feel like joining that 1/3rd that won't fly Horizon. At this point I'd settle for a couple $125 vouchers and use of the board room for a year. (surely that wouldn't crowd the new improved board room to much?)
Don't you work for AS? How does someone get through to someone that actually cares? e-mail me if you don't want to post an answer.
Originally posted by AS Flyer:
Superd1 -
While I don't believe that this would qualify for compensation as "being bumped", since technically they cancelled your flight, I would guess that you would deserve a little something better than what you got. They claimed it was a mechanical cancellation, when actually it was a cancellation to suit company convenience. It sounds like maybe they had a flight, absent a plane, that maybe had more passengers on it and needed the plane more for those folks than for the CLM flight. It's an unfortunate call but it happens at every airline from time to time. I still believe you would be entitled to something more fair than what you got, although I don't know that it warrants a free upgrade to MVP Gold. Can you imagine if they comped elite status to everyone that had something go wrong. Everyone would be MVP or MVP Gold.
</font>
Superd1 -
While I don't believe that this would qualify for compensation as "being bumped", since technically they cancelled your flight, I would guess that you would deserve a little something better than what you got. They claimed it was a mechanical cancellation, when actually it was a cancellation to suit company convenience. It sounds like maybe they had a flight, absent a plane, that maybe had more passengers on it and needed the plane more for those folks than for the CLM flight. It's an unfortunate call but it happens at every airline from time to time. I still believe you would be entitled to something more fair than what you got, although I don't know that it warrants a free upgrade to MVP Gold. Can you imagine if they comped elite status to everyone that had something go wrong. Everyone would be MVP or MVP Gold.
</font>
Up here about 1/3rd of the business people I know absolutely refuse to fly Horizon due to some horror story experience of being let down. I have been a strong vocal advocate and have probably gotten 15 to 20 people to sign up for the AS Mileage program. In additon I have about 30 employees that I encourage to use the local service rather than drive to Seattle where they frequently use a different airline. I have 10 people that ask me to e-mail them when I see a fun trip or a bonus that AS is offering that they might take advantage of. two weekends ago I convinced a couple of friends to pop down to Portland for a 3 day weekend, just for the fun of it. We got stuck in that mess mentioned in the post above. All this to say that I want AS/Horizon to make me feel good about them again so that I can continue to recommend them. Right now I feel like joining that 1/3rd that won't fly Horizon. At this point I'd settle for a couple $125 vouchers and use of the board room for a year. (surely that wouldn't crowd the new improved board room to much?)
Don't you work for AS? How does someone get through to someone that actually cares? e-mail me if you don't want to post an answer.