$160 comp for downgrade F to Y ?

Old May 26, 22, 11:51 am
  #16  
 
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Originally Posted by VegasGambler View Post
This is all irrelevant. They are entitled to the fare difference between the cheapest economy ticket and what they paid. Whether the underlying fare basis is economy or not doesn't matter. It was sold as a first class ticket on the website (regardless of fare basis) and they were accommodated in economy.
No, itís not. The OP already stated that they donít know the original ticket cost. For all we know, it couldíve been a Main cabin fare eligible for use with a GGU, or any other number of iterations.
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Old May 26, 22, 12:14 pm
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Originally Posted by NoLaGent View Post
This thread is about F vs Y pricing on AS, what else would I be talking about?
Sorry. My mistake.
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Old May 26, 22, 12:25 pm
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Originally Posted by NoLaGent View Post
No, itís not. The OP already stated that they donít know the original ticket cost. For all we know, it couldíve been a Main cabin fare eligible for use with a GGU, or any other number of iterations.
Well yes an instrument upgrade would be different, but that's not buying a first class ticket. OP said that they didn't know what the economy fare was, but no mention of an upgrade was made.

A y-up fare, or any fare that books into first class but has an underlying economy fare basis, is a first class ticket. They are entitled to the difference between what they paid and the cheapest (regardless of fare class) economy ticket.

Personally if I bought a more expensive fare class specifically to apply an upgrade instrument and was accommodated in economy, I would argue long and hard to be refunded the date difference to the cheapest economy fare class (including filIng a DOT complaint citing unfair and deceptive business practices if necessary, since the website claims I will be accommodated in first on that fare) but that's far less cut and dry and, unless the OP has left out crucial details, is not relevant here.

The fact that most first class fares have underlying economy fare bases is irrelevant and distracts from the relevant points.

Now, it's possible that $160 was the fare difference between what was paid and the cheapest economy fare, but that doesn't sound likely to me and as someone who (IIRC?) books a lot of first class tickets I'm guessing that it doesn't sound likely to you either? But yes, it's possible.
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Old May 26, 22, 12:44 pm
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Originally Posted by VegasGambler View Post
This is all irrelevant. They are entitled to the fare difference between the cheapest economy ticket and what they paid. Whether the underlying fare basis is economy or not doesn't matter. It was sold as a first class ticket on the website (regardless of fare basis) and they were accommodated in economy.
Define cheapest economy ticket!

I don't know if $160 was the difference between the cheapest economy ticket and what the passenger paid for F and neither do you.

I am illustrating that a differential may be less than what one assumes it should be and that is relevant. If AS was providing "compensation," those amounts are usually in $25 multiples; $75, $100, $125, $200, not an arbitrary amount like $160. The fact that the amount was $160 seems to reflect something closer to a fare difference; something calculated.

The passenger can refer to the confirmation letter received to ascetain the amount paid and fare class booked.

James
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Old May 26, 22, 1:15 pm
  #20  
 
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Originally Posted by Flying for Fun View Post
Define cheapest economy ticket!
The cheapest ticket available for sale at the time of booking.

I don't know if $160 was the difference between the cheapest economy ticket and what the passenger paid for F and neither do you.
Yes, I said that. It's unlikely but certainly possible.

I am illustrating that a differential may be less than what one assumes it should be and that is relevant. If AS was providing "compensation," those amounts are usually in $25 multiples; $75, $100, $125, $200, not an arbitrary amount like $160. The fact that the amount was $160 seems to reflect something closer to a fare difference; something calculated.
That's likely true but the question is are they using the cheapest available economy fare at time of reaccomodation or the cheapest available one at the time of booking? Or something else?

The passenger can refer to the confirmation letter received to ascetain the amount paid and fare class booked.
Fare class booked is not relevant. Underlying fare class is even less relevant; this is information that's not even displayed to the customer anywhere. All that matters is that it showed up in the "first class" column at booking, as this would lead the customer to reasonably believe that they were booking a first class ticket. And they are entitled to the difference between that fare and the cheapest fare that showed up under "Main Cabin" (and a case could even be made for "Saver").

The customer is not expected or required to understand inventory, underlying fare classes, or booking codes. They are shown a price for first class and a different price (or maybe more than one) for economy. That's all that matters.
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Old May 26, 22, 3:40 pm
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Originally Posted by VegasGambler View Post
The cheapest ticket available for sale at the time of booking.
We are in agreeance here. You original statement leaves open an interpretation that it should be the cheapest economy, not Saver, fare sold on the flight without consideration of advance purchase nor availability.


Originally Posted by VegasGambler View Post
Yes, I said that. It's unlikely but certainly possible.
Why is it unlikely? On what grounds? Your statement is pure speculation; unsubstantiated.

Originally Posted by VegasGambler View Post
That's likely true but the question is are they using the cheapest available economy fare at time of reaccomodation or the cheapest available one at the time of booking? Or something else?
Neither of us knows or can know that. That is why I suggested the passenger contact AS to discuss it. It is very possible that the cheapest available economy fare at the time of reaccomodatiion was more than what was originally paid for F. Again, too many moving parts, too much missing information.

Originally Posted by VegasGambler View Post
Fare class booked is not relevant. All that matters is that it showed up in the "first class" column at booking, as this would lead the customer to reasonably believe that they were booking a first class ticket. And they are entitled to the difference between that fare and the cheapest fare that showed up under "Main Cabin" (and a case could even be made for "Saver").
Agree that the price difference should be between what the passenger paid for the F seat & what the Main cabin fare was at the time of booking. I referenced the confirmation letter to establish what was paid. The booking class is relavent. If it was other than I then it likely wasn't a y-up and a higher differential might be warranted.

Originally Posted by VegasGambler View Post
Underlying fare class is even less relevant; this is information that's not even displayed to the customer anywhere.
Here you are absolutely incorrect. Summary & detailed fare basis rules are available for all fares purchased on the AS website. The exact same rules you would see on EF.

The underlying fare class is relavent in establishing that the passenger could have purchased an economy fare that books into F. The fare difference from that y-up purchase would be less than purchasing the same F fare bucket without it if no higher economy y-up fares were also offered.

Originally Posted by VegasGambler View Post
The customer is not expected or required to understand inventory, underlying fare classes, or booking codes. They are shown a price for first class and a different price (or maybe more than one) for economy. That's all that matters.
Nor did I say that they should. Again, I used that information to establish that the $160 refund is a feasible price difference. Nothing more. Just because someone thinks it should be more doesn't make it so.

It would be in the passengers best interest, as stated before, to discuss it with AS to see how they arrived at that amount. The downgrade happened before the airport since a "plea" was indicated to waive baggage fees also establishing no Elite status or other waivers. I would also discuss loss of use of the AL if there would have been one available on the specific route.

James
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Old May 26, 22, 4:13 pm
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Originally Posted by Flying for Fun View Post
Why is it unlikely? On what grounds? Your statement is pure speculation; unsubstantiated.
Because it was a transcon flight and the difference between economy and first on a transcon flight is usually more like $400-$1000 rather than $160. So, yes, it's possible, but it's unlikely.

$160 sounds more like the difference between a decent first class fare purchased a couple of months out (say, $960) and a walk-up economy fare (say, $800). Of course it's possible that that was the differential at booking, but, again, it's unlikely.

And, yes, this is speculation. That's why I use the word "unlikely" rather than "impossible"
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Old May 28, 22, 6:11 pm
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I’ll add a data point - I was booked in F for SAN to SEA and my flight was canceled less than 12 hours before the scheduled departure time. After multiple phone conversations, I was rebooked on an earlier flight in Y and given a refund of $114. I know for sure the difference between the offered Y fare and what I paid for F at the time of booking was much more than $114. I have sent AS a message via their website asking for an additional refund. Who know what will happen but I will report back.

On another point, why won’t AS cancel their flights earlier? They know they are going to have to cancel ~ 5% of their flight daily based on what they have admitted. It would be easier for everyone, the airline included, if flights were cancelled with more notice. I’m assuming my flight was cancelled due to the ongoing staffing shortage.
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Old Jun 1, 22, 3:24 pm
  #24  
 
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Originally Posted by VegasGambler View Post
This is all irrelevant. They are entitled to the fare difference between the cheapest economy ticket and what they paid. Whether the underlying fare basis is economy or not doesn't matter. It was sold as a first class ticket on the website (regardless of fare basis) and they were accommodated in economy.
I raised the same issue in another thread and have since tried looking through AS's FAQs to find where this practice is mentioned, but without success. Can you tell me whether this is a stated AS policy, AS custom and practice or US regulations, please? If you have a relevant link, that would be very much appreciated. I'd prefer to be able to refer to the correct precedent when, presumably, I have to fight AS for the correct refund. Thanks very much!
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Old Jun 1, 22, 4:17 pm
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Originally Posted by hshs View Post
I raised the same issue in another thread and have since tried looking through AS's FAQs to find where this practice is mentioned, but without success. Can you tell me whether this is a stated AS policy, AS custom and practice or US regulations, please? If you have a relevant link, that would be very much appreciated. I'd prefer to be able to refer to the correct precedent when, presumably, I have to fight AS for the correct refund. Thanks very much!
https://www.transportation.gov/indiv...ection/refunds

Class of Service Change - A consumer is entitled to a refund if the consumer was involuntarily moved to a lower class of service. For example, if the consumer purchased a first-class ticket and was downgraded to economy class due to an aircraft swap, the consumer is owed the difference in fares.

I don't believe that anyone could reasonably claim that "difference in fares" does not refer to the fare available at the time of booking the flight. If an airline did make this claim, I would simply file a DOT complaint and request that they clarify the rule to the airline.

FWW I've never heard of an airline actually making this claim. What they do is give you the lesser refund (or no refund at all) and hope that you will go away. They leave it up to you to find out what the correct refund should be and then request it. I've never heard of someone being refused when they offered a screenshot that shows the fare difference at the time of booking.

I wish that people would file DOT complaints every time an airline did this. Enough complaints and the DOT will "clarify" things to the airlines, in the form of enforcement letters.
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Old Jun 1, 22, 4:43 pm
  #26  
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Was the friend's wife flying paid F? Y-Up or upgrade fare? Award?
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Old Jun 1, 22, 10:34 pm
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Originally Posted by VegasGambler View Post
https://www.transportation.gov/indiv...ection/refunds

Class of Service Change - A consumer is entitled to a refund if the consumer was involuntarily moved to a lower class of service. For example, if the consumer purchased a first-class ticket and was downgraded to economy class due to an aircraft swap, the consumer is owed the difference in fares.

I don't believe that anyone could reasonably claim that "difference in fares" does not refer to the fare available at the time of booking the flight. If an airline did make this claim, I would simply file a DOT complaint and request that they clarify the rule to the airline.

FWW I've never heard of an airline actually making this claim. What they do is give you the lesser refund (or no refund at all) and hope that you will go away. They leave it up to you to find out what the correct refund should be and then request it. I've never heard of someone being refused when they offered a screenshot that shows the fare difference at the time of booking.

I wish that people would file DOT complaints every time an airline did this. Enough complaints and the DOT will "clarify" things to the airlines, in the form of enforcement letters.
Thank you, VegasGambler; thatís very helpful.
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