rjque

Whose expectation are we talking about? I think many passengers (myself included) would prefer to see well rested pilots up front, regardless of whether their schedule is legal or not. That was what I understood the point of the post to be. Legality was not the issue.

mot29

Right, I made the comment, not of the legality, but whether I'd want to be on a plane where someone has just 'deadheaded' for 6+ hours, whatever seat they were sitting in.

MSPeconomist

However, (ultra) longhaul flights have extra pilots who get rest periods on the aircraft, during the flight. How is the case of the pilot who takes the first rest period and later lands the plane significantly different from someone who deadheads and then serves as a pilot?

rjque

Ultra longhaul flights have real sleeper seats or recliners, and many have a sleeping area for crew. AS F is not a sleeper seat and is not conducive to any sort of sleep for many people. I'm a lot of things when I get off an AS flight in F, but well rested is not one of them.

Eastbay1K

For instance, on a 787, said pilot is having shluffy-time right above the place where there are no overhead bins in the center section over Rows 1 and 2. Other aircraft have similar, or a couple of sleeper seats designated for cockpit crew, with a surrounding curtain. Big difference.

I think the last time I flew an AS F seat that I found more than "relatively comfortable" was on a 727.

B787938

Who does AS' gate agent work in BOS? Assume it not AS employees but Unifi or some other non-union bottom feeder. Company AS gate agents are a slight step above UA EWR GAs but the outsourced ones are inept and rude. Especially so if they have deal with anything other than doing basic check in and bag tagging.

Eujeanie

Since I don't know, can someone explain to me how far in advance pilots are scheduled, how far in advance they know they will be on a certain flight to a certain destination? Barring an emergency when they need someone right here right now, I don't understand how they wait until everyone is seated and then bump a passenger out of their seat. I've talked to lots of FA's who mention how they sign on for their preferred schedules and routes (even some husband/wife FA teams who are on the same schedules). How do the pilot assignments work?

Ghoulish

According to the FAA, being downgraded is a type of bumping, the remedy for which is the difference between fares. They stress that's the minimum and airlines are free to exceed that compensation.

It's really not compensation to force you into a different product and grant you the favor of paying the same price you could've had you chosen it to begin within.

fly18725

Pilots bid similarly to FAs. They can have their schedule changed at a moments notice, provided it keeps duty time within contractual and legal limitations.

notquiteaff

And do their systems actually know what the price of the economy would have been when you booked the ticket, i.e., do they have historic fare data readily available? Or do they use the fare data valid at the time of the downgrade?

And of course the economy seat might not have been what the passenger would have chose. Perhaps another carrier would have been the passenger’s choice if economy had been the product they wanted.

LarryJ

Each airline has somewhat different particulars, but you generally bid for the following month's schedule early in the month and those bid awards are published mid-month, plus or minus a few days. I don't know the particulars for AS pilots.

It really shouldn't happen that late in the process except for very rare instances.

Crews will misconnect, time-out, get sick, test positive for CV19, etc. which will require short-notice changes. When an airline is short on crews, particularly when there are large-scale disruptions such as severe weather, there will be a lot of late reassignments, assignments to reserves, and the need to deadhead crews around the system to fill in.

Last summer, I was flying Cancun to Houston and was scheduled to continue on to San Diego. Our iPads are connected via the airplane's internet (and we had a Viasat airplane with service well into Central America). As we're crossing the gulf I started getting notifications about schedule changes. I had been reassigned to fly to Ft. Lauderdale and the Captain had been reassigned to fly to Portland, OR. Turned out my Captain for the IAH-FLL leg was an ORD reserve Captain who was being deadheaded in from ORD to fly the flight. The original IAH-FLL crew had timed out and was reassigned a shorter flight that was within their allowable block/duty time. The interesting part of this was that I was landing 11 minutes before the IAH-FLL flight was scheduled to depart and I had to clear immigration before going to the FLL gate. So much for the nice SAN layover I had bid for a few weeks before...

mot29

Don't know about other airlines but on DL ultra-long haul those are D1 seats or crew rest bunks. I think there are bunks on the A350s and A330s and there were on the 74s and 77s (I think). On the 76s it is a D1 seat with a zipped up curtain enclosure.
It just seems that 6+hours plus the time to get to the flight makes for a long day even before the work day begins.
Sure its legal and probably very safe, but not something I really like the idea of.
And I'm sure this was an exception - you would think that Alaska could find a closer pilot to take the flight. Seems to speak to the current staffing issues with all the airlines.

RaingerRain

As a 17 year old girl MVPG 100k myself, this hurts me so much. That could have be me. It makes me furious that out of everyone in first they had to choose her. Personally as I worked so hard for my status every thing, every upgrade counts. We remember the good times we were upgraded, but when you are downgraded it impacts you way more. Personally I would contact Alaska. Write them a letter. Explain it from your daughters point of view. If I was her I would be feel very hurt. Explain that. Make the reader of the letter feel sad. If you letter conveys the emotion she felt it will help get the best compensation. And negotiate with them. Make them give you the most amount of compensation. Then use it and go on a trip with your daughter. Treat yourselves, use the credit to fly first class. And go on a vacation. If I was her that would make it all better. Then consider leaving Alaska. I personally am also not happy with a lot of what they have done recently and don’t plan on staying with them much longer. I really feel her pain, as I am also a 17-year-old Alaska elite and know that that could have been me. Unfortunately we live in a world where as my grandfather likes to say “the big one takes advantage of the small one.” Some people just don’t respect the youth and don’t realize how damaging it is To us to do things like this.

Beltway2A

Consumer protection in the US regarding air travel seems pretty consistent with most of our god-awful consumer protection laws in every other area. They're a complete joke, and it's not surprising that AS chose to piss off a customer than risk violating a CBA and exacerbating their existing labor difficulties.

In an ideal world, the airline would honor pilot contracts and consumers would have real protections with real consequences if the airlines violated their protections. It's even conceivable that in that world, an airline may go above and beyond the legally mandated minimum as a customer service gesture. If that world exists somewhere, it's definitely not the world in which the major US carriers operate.

Carfield

I am just curious on the passenger's option!

If he or she was not in a hurry, could he or she just ask to be offloaded and booked into the next flight with first class seat?
If overnight has to take place, I presume Alaska has to provide hotel & meal vouchers!
I travel for leisure and am not in a hurry. If I am involuntarily downgraded, I personally would ask to be offloaded and put on the next flight with first class to my destination. If I pay for first class, that means I don't want to fly coach. I have no problem giving my seat to a deadheading pilot, as long as they unload my check-in bag, book me on the next flight with first class cabin, and put me in a nice hotel along with dinner if I have to fly out the next day.

Carfield