sdsearch

You seem to not be aware that AS's competitors don't have lie-flat on most transcons either.

Fly AA LAX-PHL? Fly AA LAX-BOS? Fly AA LAX-MIA? No lie-flat, only LAX-JFK!

So AA only flies LAX-JFK lie-flat, no other routes from LAX. Same from SFO I'm pretty sure.

And back when AA flew LAX-EWR nonstop, that wasn't lie-flat (or three-class) either. (AA only has lie-flat domestically on three-class transcon versions of 321 planes.)

DamoTime

I get upgraded to FC on about 80% of my flights. The only time I don't get upgraded is when I fly during peak times in/out of peak markets (PDX/SEATAC).

sltlyamusd

Exactly! If you fly an AA 2-cabin A321 in F the pitch is 36-37” and the seat is the same as in int’l premium economy. And AA is removing the IFE screens from domestic equipment. So if the comparison is between AS F and the non-lie flat AA F cabin, I would take AS in a heartbeat for better legroom and IMHO better food and service.

chrisl137

UA is similar-
LAX-EWR, SFO-EWR, & SFO-BOS are their only "guaranteed" lie flat routes.
LAX-BOS? Sometimes seasonally, and even then it's not every flight. Right now they aren't even flying LAX-BOS every day.
LAX-IAD? I looked last night at flights about 6 weeks out and they have ~6 flights/day, of which 1-2 have lie flats depending on direction and day.
SFO-IAD? About 2/3 the flights have them, 1/3 don't. No guarantee.
SFO/LAX-ORD? sometimes, no guarantee.
Other transcon routes? Mostly no.

sfozrhfco

The simple solution if one does not like an airline's product on a particular route when there are more suitable options is to take the best option and not fret about what another airline doesn't offer. AS or any other airline is not going to change their product if there is no financial consequence to keepng things as they are--no matter what the competition does. If there are financial consequences because of lost business AS or another airline can decide if it is best to: 1. lose money but continue to operate the route 2. reduce frequency or eliminate the route from the network 3. adjust the product to gain back lost revenue.

If all a customer does is complain but continues to fork over the cash, there is absolutely no incentive for any airline to spend more than it thinks it can get back from any improvements. By now, everybody knows what they are going to get so endless complaining without changing behavior is just not logical at this point.

jrl767

... as is endlessly reminding everyone at every opportunity how wonderful VX was, and how AS has (whether willfully or just randomly) destroyed everything that made VX so wonderful

UAPremierExec

Well, if the rumors ARE true that Alaska's remaining Airbus on order are being converted to A321XLR, those rumors also mention a new "subfleet" to be used for 'significantly longer flying than we have now" and the planes will be geared towards that... take from what you want, but honestly, considering the environment and even Copa adding in lie-flats on Max9, one would gather that Alaska might have something similar to AA 757's configuration with some lie-flats or at least a significantly upgraded seat.

But, I will believe it when the plane is on the tarmac. Until then, its always a fun topic to discuss/debate. I'd LOVE to see a small fleet with something better than what we have now (despite having it with VX)...

ASeverywhere

I’m actually fine with what we have right now. I just flew DTW-LAX in first with DL a few days ago. The experience was nothing to write home about. In my opinion, the seats are comfortable, but not as comfortable as AS. The pitch between seats was obviously smaller than AS. The food was good, but not as good as AS. There was PDB, but I rarely need that service, and when I feel I do, I can ask the AS FA, and s/he will always happily serve me one. DL FA’s were friendly and available, but not as much as AS FA’s. There was a snack basket, with a little less variety than AS. There was no pre-landing mint, which admittedly, is trivial, but a nice touch from AS.

Considering all that, I feel that all this angst and consternation over AS’ first class is just not justifiable, and a bit misguided. I think AS is competitive in first, and that they’re doing a good job.

AS Flyer

Partly my point above - I think AS First Class is competitive in many ways, and in some ways maybe better, some ways maybe less on most routes. SFO/LAX-NYC/BOS (in some cases - not all) are the few routes that offer better products on a majority of the competition. There's something for everyone I guess. Although I would argue that a significant majority of the people are not in those lie flat seats.

Shareholder

As has no routes or corporate accounts that would justify upgrading planes for such a premium service. While Boeing and Microsoft are huge accounts, neither would generate enough daily customers for flights to NYC or DC, the two primary cities for non-stop transcon service. SEA-ORD is too short a run to justify such a cabin. UA, DL and AA can provide dedicated aircraft with such premium cabins b case they can generate the high end corporate customers between NYC-LAX/SFO, three of the largest business cities in the country. Nor does AS have any wide body aircraft that would normally offer flat beds on long international routes and that in down time could fly domestic routes (as happens with all three majors). Bottom line, it's not good for the bottom line, even converting a couple of 737s or buying a few A321s.

5khours

A few observations.

1) It seems to me that the issues (cited in this thread) that AS has relating to lie flat seats are common to all carriers. Like anything, there are costs and benefits to all actions. What I don't understand is why all of AS competitors (not to mention nearly all carriers with similar routes in other geographies) have determined that the benefits justify the costs, whereas only AS has come to a different conclusion.

2) It's not really relevant that other carriers don't offer lie-flat on all transcons. I don't think that's the expectation. The expectation/desire if for lie-flats on the more major routes.

3) No on realistically expects cheap lie-flats. I think the carriers are all targeting passengers who are willing to pay more for a better seat.

4) I get the impression that a lot of the pushback on this thread comes from a concern that the installation of lie flats would make it more difficult to get free upgrades from economy on the longer routes. It's a legitimate concern, but I feel like there could be a little more transparency about it.

rustykettel

You can substitute for lie flats
- minimum spend requirements for elite status
- spend based RDM
- full membership in an alliance
- nationwide or nearly nationwide network
- international network to every continent except Antartica
- widebody aircraft
- full PDBs
- amenity kits
- pillows

AS has stated they see value to being different and not pursuing a Me Too strategy (although in reality I think they've come a lot closer to Blah Airlines than they'd admit) from a position of weakness.

5khours

Yes... but... 80% of what you've listed is just a function of being a domestic and not an international airline....and...what's the point of being different just to be different. There has to be some value in not having lie flats, and I'm not really seeing it. There has been a steady and very long term worldwide trend toward better seats up front on medium and long hauls, and I may be wrong, but IMHO it seems to me that AS is just slow to the game on this one.

chrisl137

WN doesn't even offer F seats, let alone lie-flats. WN is most certainly a competitor to AS on many routes and only recently started flying transcons at all.

There are lots of flyers who don't care about lie-flats. On a daytime or evening transcon I'm fine with a regular recliner. I avoid redeyes for work, since we're a Y-ticket only travel policy. I fly occasional redeyes, and it's not really worth the extra price for me.

That's certainly an element of it. For those of us on Y-ticket only policies, some carriers (e.g. UA) don't even offer CPU's to F on their premium routes. AS has a different approach where F is competitive with non-premium routes and they make it relatively easy to get upgrades. They also give you visibility into instant upgrades at booking so you can pay a fare premium and get F at booking if there's U space. This is essentially a way for them to offer discount F at booking to their frequent flyers. Compared to flying hub-to-hub on UA where it's getting hard to even get an E+ aisle at booking if you book inside of a week, AS is a substantially better experience. There are plenty of airlines offering lie-flats to various places, so AS certainly wouldn't differentiate themselves from the others based on that, and more likely would find themselves in a race to the bottom on premium routes. Instead they're working a different niche and it's a better experience for enough people that they seem to do ok.

ETA: and AS does actually have better seats in F if you're comparing to recliner F on OAL. I've always found the UA F seats a little off, but AS F seats are much more comfortabl.

rustykettel

And why isn't AS an international carrier, beyond the four countries it flies within/to? They could ramp up capacity, staffing, and start flying to a whole lot more countries. Add on a Midwest and east coast hubs as well. Why don't they do that?

AS isn't being different to be different. They have said they believe there's value (and profits) to be found in offering something different than their competitors, rather than be followers. AS isn't slow to lie flats. They've explicitly rejected them as not fitting in their current model.