CalanMan

Having to file for bankruptcy is the very definition of not having a sustainable business. It doesn't mean that your business was never sustainable, nor that the entity formed after restructuring isn't sustainable.

So instead of saying you could say that HA, in its current form, has been around for 14 years, which isn't bad. It's longer than VX was around.

But even with using bankruptcy as your marker, long-term sustainable airlines do exist! WN has been operating for 47 years without a bankruptcy, and AS has been operating for 87 years without a bankruptcy.

williwaw

I'd be careful about saying sustainability is much of a characteristic investors care about. If that was the goal, utilities would be the red hot ticket. Risk and failure are part of the design, so a sustainable company could also be an underperforming one.

CalanMan

Oh, totally. Sustainability is generally not what investors care about. Growth is. If they wanted their money to be worth the same in a year as it is today, then they could just put it in a savings account, or something else safe that maybe accrues interest near inflation.

Conversely, something doesn't have to be sustainable to be an excellent investment. VX is a great example of this, it has joined a long list of startups that weren't sustainable as they were operating, but developed holdings (intellectual property like proprietary tech, or real estate like gate leases at SFO and JFK) that were appealing to an already-established business that could make use of those assets, and made the startup investors a ton of money.

BW Flyer

VegasGambler

Actually I'm pretty sure they are dead last. They have far more than their fair share of maintenance-related incidents. Uncontained engine failures (twice); pieces of the fuselage falling off during takeoff, creating a hole in the fuselage (twice). This is all in the last decade and is a sign of poor maintenance.

Compare to other US airlines who fly a similar amount or more, and you will see that AA has had one major maintenance-related issue (engine burst into flames on takeoff) and UA and DL have had none (I'm specify talking about maintenance issues here, not pilot error). I don't see how WN can have four when AA, UA, and DL combined (which is a LOT more flights than WN) can have had one in the same timeframe. I guess it's not sustainable to offer free checked bags and maintain the aircraft properly. I stopped flying them before their planes started falling apart in mid-air but this just affirms my decision.

Eastbay1K

So, to rehash this again, I just flew OAK/SNA/OAK over the past couple of days. In both directions, the A 1-15 part of the line was close to, if not entirely, full. This is the "business select." I paid for early bird check-in, and was mid 40s, in both directions, meaning there were plenty of A listers as well as others that paid before I did, on the plane. There were a lot of businessmen in suits. This morning (as my WN flight had a slight delay), I walked down the SNA terminal, past the peace and serenity of the AS gates, including flights to SFO and SJC. I didn't see what looked like a business traveler crowd. I would expect that most of those in today's A group are accustomed to staying in "above-average" accommodations, and have incomes starting with 6 figures. Of course, looks can be deceiving, and perhaps we had all just left Disneyland, and put the rest of our families on a bus back home. I could have flown AS for a similar price. But I wanted to be home more reliably by flying OAK. I had the added bonus of arriving OAK Gate 6, right at lunchtime, and decided to plop into the Escape Lounge for a quick lunch with my AX Platinum. WN worked very well for me this week, notwithstanding that I'd probably had an F upgrade both ways from/to SFO.

And no, I've not eaten at McDonald's since 1982, and do not recall when I last stayed (if ever) in a Motel 6.

formeraa

The key is to be educated about what you're getting for your money. I live in PHX and I honestly can't tell the difference between AA and WN on a route less than, say, 2.5 hours. Yes, AA has boarding groups, while WN has exact numbers. Honestly, sometimes WN's boarding is more orderly than AA's because people aren't crowding the gate.

Back to the topic at hand, I sometimes purchase F on AS between PHX and SEA because it is not priced much more than Y around the peak holiday times (and I get luggage and a snack included as well as a big seat). It is a decent product for the discounted F price. I don't need sheer luxury on a 3 hour flight (AA and DL have a slightly better meal on meal flights but not worth $150 more).

channa

WN's bread and butter is short flights. The chicken and egg question is whether they found lots of niche/secondary markets to fly which are short so they fly lots of those, or people put up with WN for an hour or two, so that generates the business for them on shorties. My opinion is that there's a lot of people in the latter group. Perks and seat assignments and such matter a lot less on a 1-hour flight.

Eastbay1K

There's nothing to "put up" with on the short flights unless you really want an F seat. You want a guaranteed window or aisle? You pay $15 to $25 extra. You want a choice of the whole plane? You pay the full Y fare, and they throw in a drink. They even send out drink coupons from time to time.

Yes, a few days after flying JetsuiteX, WN was mildly annoying. But aisles both ways, ample overhead space, drink coupons, relatively on time, convenient airports, short flights, and only one really bad whiff of dirty diaper smell (which never occurs on other airlines), and all was fine. And I was spared the "bad joke" of AS First Class!

channa

$15 to $25 extra AND get to the gate before boarding starts. Assigned seats are held until right before door close. That's a big difference. That, and you don't have to pay Full Y to get your pick of the cabin.

There's a reason WN has so many short flights. The frustrations of their product are amplified on long flights.

Eastbay1K

And just how much overhead bin space does AS hold for you if you board last, for your "reserved seat?"

williwaw

Not been a big issue for me to board late. Some jockeying around and my bag will make it. Worst case it gets gate checked.

Eastbay1K

I do not believe that to be the required case. It typically is, but they don't have to hold your reserved seat if you're not at the gate at the required time, which I believe in the case of AS is T-30.

VegasGambler

SFO-EWR red-eye, about to take off. No PDB offered. No offer to hang up jackets -- I had to walk up to the front and ask. FA never even came by.

What a joke this airline is. Absolutely no clue what first class is supposed to entail. I just have to keep repeating to myself 15k miles, 15k miles, 15k miles (for the round trip). It's the only redeeming quality.

RAD_PDX