What Routes Do You Want Alaska Airlines to Fly? (2019)
#166
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: San Francisco area
Programs: AA EXP, Marriott T
Posts: 455
Totally agree. This year I really wanted to dump AA for good and make AS my preferred airline, have been EXP for 10+yrs, but the holes in Alaska's network keep taking me back to them, it's the middle of the year and now I have to decide whether to maintain my EXP. My next set of travels will take me to BOS and here I would have loved to take AS nonstop, but the need to maintain EXP will take me back to one stop on AA, loosing AS several thousands of $'s of revenue. I have to assume there are many many other examples like me in the bay area.
#167
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: SEA, but up and down the coast a lot
Programs: Oceanic Airlines Gold Elite
Posts: 20,385
Totally agree. This year I really wanted to dump AA for good and make AS my preferred airline, have been EXP for 10+yrs, but the holes in Alaska's network keep taking me back to them, it's the middle of the year and now I have to decide whether to maintain my EXP. My next set of travels will take me to BOS and here I would have loved to take AS nonstop, but the need to maintain EXP will take me back to one stop on AA, loosing AS several thousands of $'s of revenue. I have to assume there are many many other examples like me in the bay area.
Glad to see the FT Executive Vice Presidents for Network Planning are on the ball at pointing out the problems in the AS network.
#168
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: San Francisco area
Programs: AA EXP, Marriott T
Posts: 455
[QUOTE=
Glad to see the FT Executive Vice Presidents for Network Planning are on the ball at pointing out the problems in the AS network.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for your snarky comment. I am not AS Network Planning, but a frequent flier (annual spend >20k) who is not tied to a certain airline based on where I live, the kind all airlines compete for. I gave a real world example of where AS's network holes keep me from going all in for them, in a city where they spend $2.8B to buy a competitor.
And BTW, looking at AS's operating margins, maybe their network planning team should be replaced.
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/c...erating-margin
Here are DL's operating margin by contrast:
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/c...profit-margins
Glad to see the FT Executive Vice Presidents for Network Planning are on the ball at pointing out the problems in the AS network.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for your snarky comment. I am not AS Network Planning, but a frequent flier (annual spend >20k) who is not tied to a certain airline based on where I live, the kind all airlines compete for. I gave a real world example of where AS's network holes keep me from going all in for them, in a city where they spend $2.8B to buy a competitor.
And BTW, looking at AS's operating margins, maybe their network planning team should be replaced.
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/c...erating-margin
Here are DL's operating margin by contrast:
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/c...profit-margins
#169
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: YYF/YLW
Programs: AA, DL, AS, VA, WS Silver
Posts: 5,950
As to what routes what I love Alaska airlines to fly, how about do a simple exercise of picking the top business destinations from SFO/SJC and sticking with them? If they really want to make Bay Area a true hub of loyal customers who can be very high yielding, they have to serve top business destinations. Right now there are several like ATL and HOU that are completely missing, and others like DAL where Alaska can't get it scheduled straight. When an opportunity came for me to start traveling frequently to DAL earlier this year, there were 7 flights a day from both SFO and SJC, nicely spread throughout Now there are only 5, and the last flight from DAL leaves at 4 PM, which is way too early for a business traveler. And I keep having to go back to dreaded AA when I would love to start traveling exclusively with Alaska.
Thanks for your snarky comment. I am not AS Network Planning, but a frequent flier (annual spend >20k) who is not tied to a certain airline based on where I live, the kind all airlines compete for. I gave a real world example of where AS's network holes keep me from going all in for them, in a city where they spend $2.8B to buy a competitor.
Alaska doesn't have the resources to serve the top business destinations from SFO/SJC with the frequency that frequent business travellers want. They can't compete with United for that market, so they (wisely, I suspect) don't try. Instead, they go after a different market (as they have said explicitly). It's moderately frequent flyers: people who fly infrequently enough that they don't demand hourly flights SFO-Dallas but frequently enough so they're not a pure lowest-fare traveller, who like the AS credit card and/or the fact that AS is a nicer experience for moderately-frequent travellers than three legacies but also isn't Southwest, or other things that AS does a bit better than the competition. They don't pretend that they can attract many travellers out of SFO to fly them exclusively, so they go for getting a pretty good share of traffic from moderately frequent flyers. And when they can they go for markets where they can sensibly sidestep competition. That's a plenty large market for an airline that is closer to AA than UA in size out of SFO.
It's not entirely clear whether that recipe is a) a profitable strategy or b) the best they can do out of SFO with what they have. (And it's entirely possible that a is true but not b or that b is true but not a.) But I don't think it's a crazy strategy given what they have; I think that trying to be all things to frequent business travellers out of SFO would be a crazy strategy given that they don't have the resources to pull it off.
And BTW, looking at AS's operating margins, maybe their network planning team should be replaced.
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/c...erating-margin
Here are DL's operating margin by contrast:
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/c...profit-margins
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/c...erating-margin
Here are DL's operating margin by contrast:
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/c...profit-margins
-Your resident FT CEO
Last edited by ashill; Jun 14, 2019 at 7:16 am
#170
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,830
Yes, Alaska's Revenue Management department is reputed for lighting their cigars with hundred dollar bills obtained from company revenue. They absolutely HATE making money and will do anything in their power to avoid it, which includes ignoring routes and concepts that are obvious money makers, like flying hourly SFO-DEN/IAH/ATL service in all-suite configured A380s in a way to get business from influencers and deciders.
#171
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: SEA, but up and down the coast a lot
Programs: Oceanic Airlines Gold Elite
Posts: 20,385
Additional fun fact: VX wasn't a top 5 carrier in their own hubs by passenger volume when they were bought. The combined entity is now finally at ~10% in SFO by accretion and some targeted growth (which doesn't make them much different in market share from AA/DL/WN in SFO, interestingly enough).
If you were expecting them to draw down SEA/PDX, or go deeply into debt to buy a hundred planes/staff accordingly, so they could launch hourly shuttle service against UA/WN/DL/AA hubs to and from SFO, you might want to adjust expectations. Even in SEA, if you want shuttle service to DFW, you fly AA (who dominates that route). IAH? UA. ORD? AA or UA. As mentioned, they're not making headlong rushes into buzzsaws, like bigger competitors who can blitz them with capacity and $49 fares all day if they want.
Last edited by eponymous_coward; Jun 13, 2019 at 5:28 pm
#172
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: SAN
Programs: AS MVPG100K, UA Gold, IHG Diamond, Hyatt Globalist, National Exec
Posts: 320
My next set of travels will take me to BOS and here I would have loved to take AS nonstop, but the need to maintain EXP will take me back to one stop on AA, loosing AS several thousands of $'s of revenue. I have to assume there are many many other examples like me in the bay area.
#174
In Memoriam, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Benicia CA
Programs: Alaska MVP Gold 75K, AA 3.8MM, UA 1.1MM, enjoying the retired life
Posts: 31,849
Additional fun fact: VX wasn't a top 5 carrier in their own hubs by passenger volume when they were bought. The combined entity is now finally at ~10% in SFO by accretion and some targeted growth (which doesn't make them much different in market share from AA/DL/WN in SFO, interestingly enough).
https://www.sfgate.com/travel/articl...O-13875046.php
#175
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: STL/ORD/MCI/SAN
Programs: AA CK MM, AC SE100K, UA 1K, DL Plat, Hyatt Globalist, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 1,986
I didn't say anything about there being a lack of gate space at STL. Indeed, empty gates are abundant. Please re-read my prior post.
#176
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: YYF/YLW
Programs: AA, DL, AS, VA, WS Silver
Posts: 5,950
I had the same reaction to your post; perhaps you weren't clear? You said you "don't know whether STL can handle a third AS route currently. I believe they only have one gate at STL (C15)." I too am confused why AS having only one gate is an issue. Or did you just mean that there isn't enough demand for AS at STL; there's currently so little demand they only need one gate?
#177
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: STL/ORD/MCI/SAN
Programs: AA CK MM, AC SE100K, UA 1K, DL Plat, Hyatt Globalist, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 1,986
I had the same reaction to your post; perhaps you weren't clear? You said you "don't know whether STL can handle a third AS route currently. I believe they only have one gate at STL (C15)." I too am confused why AS having only one gate is an issue. Or did you just mean that there isn't enough demand for AS at STL; there's currently so little demand they only need one gate?
Will AS pay all the applicable fees for the additional gate space? Do they need another feeder flight to a hub? Is there enough demand for O/D traffic alone on STL-PDX to justify the addition? Lots of questions, and so far, AS seems to think the answer is that it isn't worth it. STL-SEA is basically a given at this point. But STL-SAN just seems to be a more logical best second route than STL-PDX. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have all these routes and more, but I'm just trying to be realistic.
Additionally, the originally planned up-gauge of the STL-SAN route from an E175 to B737 this summer appears to have been reconsidered... it's back to an E175 for the remainder of the schedule, as far as I can see. That certainly doesn't bode well for additional routes.
#178
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: YYF/YLW
Programs: AA, DL, AS, VA, WS Silver
Posts: 5,950
OK, I'll spell it out...
Will AS pay all the applicable fees for the additional gate space? Do they need another feeder flight to a hub? Is there enough demand for O/D traffic alone on STL-PDX to justify the addition? Lots of questions, and so far, AS seems to think the answer is that it isn't worth it. STL-SEA is basically a given at this point. But STL-SAN just seems to be a more logical best second route than STL-PDX. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have all these routes and more, but I'm just trying to be realistic.
Additionally, the originally planned up-gauge of the STL-SAN route from an E175 to B737 this summer appears to have been reconsidered... it's back to an E175 for the remainder of the schedule, as far as I can see. That certainly doesn't bode well for additional routes.
Will AS pay all the applicable fees for the additional gate space? Do they need another feeder flight to a hub? Is there enough demand for O/D traffic alone on STL-PDX to justify the addition? Lots of questions, and so far, AS seems to think the answer is that it isn't worth it. STL-SEA is basically a given at this point. But STL-SAN just seems to be a more logical best second route than STL-PDX. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have all these routes and more, but I'm just trying to be realistic.
Additionally, the originally planned up-gauge of the STL-SAN route from an E175 to B737 this summer appears to have been reconsidered... it's back to an E175 for the remainder of the schedule, as far as I can see. That certainly doesn't bode well for additional routes.
So consider my post a nitpick, not a serious disagreement.
#179
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 5,956
OK, I'll spell it out...
Will AS pay all the applicable fees for the additional gate space? Do they need another feeder flight to a hub? Is there enough demand for O/D traffic alone on STL-PDX to justify the addition? Lots of questions, and so far, AS seems to think the answer is that it isn't worth it. STL-SEA is basically a given at this point. But STL-SAN just seems to be a more logical best second route than STL-PDX. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have all these routes and more, but I'm just trying to be realistic.
Additionally, the originally planned up-gauge of the STL-SAN route from an E175 to B737 this summer appears to have been reconsidered... it's back to an E175 for the remainder of the schedule, as far as I can see. That certainly doesn't bode well for additional routes.
Will AS pay all the applicable fees for the additional gate space? Do they need another feeder flight to a hub? Is there enough demand for O/D traffic alone on STL-PDX to justify the addition? Lots of questions, and so far, AS seems to think the answer is that it isn't worth it. STL-SEA is basically a given at this point. But STL-SAN just seems to be a more logical best second route than STL-PDX. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have all these routes and more, but I'm just trying to be realistic.
Additionally, the originally planned up-gauge of the STL-SAN route from an E175 to B737 this summer appears to have been reconsidered... it's back to an E175 for the remainder of the schedule, as far as I can see. That certainly doesn't bode well for additional routes.
#180
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 5,956
All of that I agree with except the fees for the gate space; it is easy to believe that there isn't the demand for STL-PDX or STL-Alaska territory to justify another flight. I just can't imagine a ghost town airport would set the gate fee be an obstacle for an airline instead of, say, a per use fee on a shared gate or per flight landing fees (no idea how STL charges for gates). Does AS even have to lease an entire gate for their current two flights per day?
So consider my post a nitpick, not a serious disagreement.
So consider my post a nitpick, not a serious disagreement.