RichardInSF

Valid point, I apologize for getting that wrong. It was a paid F fare, but not the highest possible fare on the route.

As I noted above, I invariably book relatively far in advance and consistently get fares in the $650 range on all carriers except B9, where it seems to be less common than on AA, DL, and UA.

eponymous_coward

Sure, though a merger means that the merged entity has to decide on something (and given that VX was the only airline in North America offering 60 inch pitch/etc. in F on every plane, and nobody bothered to copy them, seems to be an indicator that nobody else thinks that is a particular way to get fat stacks of cash).

But it's the umpteenth whine about pmVX going bye-bye. Sorry, it's gone.

Except, well, it's a race to the bottom on a particular set of routes. It isn't close to "the bottom" across 90% or so of the AS network.

I strongly suspect that VX wasn't collecting cheddar their last couple of years transcon given AA/UA/DL/B6 investment, the fact that AA/UA/DL own corporate buying far more than VX or AS ever will, and the fact that the pm-VX product needed a lie-flat refresh (read: AS either was going to have to lay out $$$ for a dedicated subfleet, and still get rid of pmVX F on a bunch of pmVX routes, or lay out $$$$$$$$ for a fleetwide lie-flat fleet, and totally hose anyone's chances for upgrades, and probably completely break their FPP model). I don't know it for sure but airline executives generally like making money.

I make no suggestions on that because bluntly the beancounters will do what they think will make them more money regardless of my suggestions. At present they think the FFP is a differentiating factor. That could change.

But are you saying that AS should have put pmVX F seats in all the 737s? The E75s? The Q400s? Gotten rid of upgrades fleetwide and changed their FFP to be a VX style, spend gets you a rebate model? Because that's an alternative- AS could have decided the VX F product and FFP was such an amazeballs winner it deserved to be implemented fleetwide. No more upgrades, swank F lie-flats for SFO-SAN or ANC-CDV.

(Also, LOL on Hawaii... UA's "lie-flat" F to Hawaii is 2-4-2 on 777s that got regularly ripped before Polaris. AA doesn't fly lie-flat to Hawaii out of LAX/PHX. Neither does DL out of SEA/LAX. West Coast-Hawaii is not a premium market like CA-NYC. If it was AS and WN wouldn't be in it, and DL wouldn't fly 757-300s that don't have lie-flat.)

Often1

Rather than arguing about it, the simple fact is that F is not a uniform product and it pays to spend 2 minutes taking a look at what you are getting for $1,600 on AS vs. DL, AA, UA, DL, and B6. If people are doing the basic research and still paying that kind of money for AS, there isn't that much to be done.

The real issue is that PDB's and real food with multiple choices are not the issue. They don't cost that much. It's all about a service standard which is lacking on AS, but which still sells.

davie355

Sure it does but there is an ethical argument against charging the same price when you offer recliner seats and the entire rest of the market offers lie-flats. You're preying on the uninformed consumer.

s0ssos

Or is that "praying on the uninformed consumer"

Colin

$650 one-way SFO-JFK for 41" domestic F is pretty reasonable if booking relatively close-in and on business traveler heavy days.

if booking in advance and with day of week flexibility, dirt cheap hidden-city flat beds eastbound to NAS/SJU and $500 flat beds westbound on Saturdays (on various airlines)

dayone

Today is the first day of your recovery.

jsguyrus

Actually I don't think that is the case anymore. We did go through a period a few months back when GGU availability almost vanished but it seems recently to be about back where it was. In the last month I have used GGU's for SEA-HNL, and SEA-JFK for bookings only a couple of months out.

I also stand by my original post, everyone is grumpy today!

tom911

That's certainly what brought me to Alaska just over 2 years ago, leaving AA after 17 years at the EXP level and a few years at UA 1K - now I have lifetime elite status at both that I occasionally use, mostly with partners. AA was the last of the big three to go revenue based, and I hung in there until that change was made. Had a nice run with well over 100 international systemwides burned over the years. Can't do that now without a significant increase in spend and playing the upgrade lottery which has been in place since the merger with US.

I value some of the perks of elite status that mileage buyers don't get. That includes same day flight changes and outright cancelling tickets, all at no charge. Can't complain about upgrades (24 in a row this year) and I'm fine not being in a reclining seat (though most of my flights have been on Airbus because they're still the dominant aircraft at SFO). I expect to requalify for 75K this year. Don't see any changes on the horizon and recall the AS CEO being quoted a few weeks ago about how their frequent flyer program balances out when you consider the wide variety of passengers in brings in, both leisure and business, low fare and high fare.

jinglish

See also: "revenue fare" when they mean "paid fare," as if anyone on an award ticket is a non-revver.

Eastbay1K

The complaints of the OP are reminiscent of someone who gets all the value menu items at Taco Bell and then complains about the explosive baño visits that ensue. It isn't that we all haven't heard the same things before, and it isn't as if the OP isn't a regular FTer. I bought a transcon ticket for later this year (on a 737 product) when I saw the U space available. I know I won't be lying flat. I know I may or may not get a splash of bubbles pre-departure. I know I'll have pitch of 40-ish inches, and hopefully, there will still be a video player. I know my keppy will not be cushioned in a deluxe hotel-branded pillow. I also know that the lavish buffay in the JFK lounge will satiate me so that I'll be pondering if anorexia is setting in when I'm ready to go to the gate.

eddiehuang97

Don't think $650 on AS rev F is too much -- I use GGU and it's about $250 to $300 and I actually really enjoyed those seats on a 6-hour flight -- they are not international J's but they get the job done.

Also, if you could find similar fares on other airlines w/ flatbeds why didn't you choose those?

s0ssos

Wait, are you saying if you buy the more expensive items at Taco Bell you won't be regular?!

ashill

VX's long term profitability says a lot more about the viability of their business model than your impression of the number of open seats.

AS's business model is fundamentally targeting customers who are willing to pay a bit more for Y, through some combination of the possibility of upgrades, the frequent flyer program, the credit card, and the (well-deserved, IMO, though flagging a bit of late) reputation of being a more pleasant carrier to fly than the big three. They're not targeting people willing to pay thousands for a single flight, and they (importantly) don't have a long haul network to feed with the corresponding demands and revenue opportunities.

Huh? AS's F product is not appreciably different than the F product flown on the vast majority of the North American flights operated by AA, UA, and DL. AA, for example, has 804 (!) mainline narrowbodies (according to Wikipedia). Of those, approximately 20 are A321s configured in a premium domestic configuration and approximately 20 are 757s configured in a long haul international configuration. The remaining 760 or so narrowbodies (ie ≈95% of AA's narrowbody fleet) as well as all or the regional aircraft with F have an F product that is nearly identical to Alaska's. It is true that you were flying on one of the two routes on which AA (for example) operates the 5% of their narrowbody fleet with a nice J/F configuration. Would you consider 95% of AA's (and DL's and UA's) domestic flights (and more than 95% of the domestic capacity) to be "all-economy, like Southwest"? Because that's the only logical interpretation I see of your comment.

AS has decided that the operational complexity of a subfleet is not something that makes sense for them. That may or may not prove to be smart in the long run. But they use the same label for "first class" service as the other carriers. As you noted, AS did not in any way indicate that SFO-NYC is a route which gets a premium product on AS. Instead, "first class" on Alaska always means the same thing, and it's the same thing "first class" (or "business class") means on nearly all routes offered by the North American competition. Heck, it's the same thing that "first class" or "business class" means on domestic/short haul narrow body fligths pretty much everywhere in the world, except Europe where "business class" means a far inferior on board product (perhaps an on board product that is inferior to Southwest's coach).

AS has said that their approach to the SFO/LAX-NYC markets is to target a price point between cheapest available coach customers and people paying for the flat beds; their product reflects that. Though I don't track those markets carefully (I essentially never fly them), my understanding is that B6 has really squeezed them, driving down the price of the flat bed seats to a level where there just isn't much space between normal Y fares and J fares. So in that particular market, there isn't a lot of room for AS to have a differentiated intermediate product as they envisioned. That's a challenge for AS, but not in the way you describe.

It is certainly true that it's nuts to pay the same for AS F on the particular route you were flying as J on any of UA, DL, AA, or B6. But the Southwest comparison you make is absurd. And on any other route, I don't think there's much of a difference between AS and the big three in product. It's interesting that AS happened to be priced at the same level as the competition for your trip. I don't think anyone, including anyone at AS, would argue that paying that to fly AS was smart.

But then, I have a grand total of once in my life paid for anything but the cheapest available ticket on the flight I want (I once paid for a Y -> W upgrade on BA but wouldn't do it again; once or twice the cheapest available flight has been in F, but otherwise I've always paid for coach), so maybe I'm not the best comparison. But I do sometimes pay a bit more for a coach ticket on AS than a coach ticket on the competition (sometimes a coach ticket with a less convenient schedule), which is exactly Alaska's stated business model.

ashill

Lucky you to consider $650 too much for F. For my trips out of YLW, I can be in the $800 range for coach, with no hope of an upgrade on the 737 segments (I'm only MVP) and less hope on the Q400 segment!