Aug 11, 2018, 9:38 pm
Last edit by: jspira
The incident itself is covered here: Sea-Tac Horizon Air employee steals airplane, does stunts before crashing near Tacoma The errant pilot, Mr. Russell, apparently recognized he was in the midst of a crisis (From Theft of Aircraft in Seattle-Tacoma Raises Serious Security Questions): “I got a lot of people that care about me and it’s going to disappoint them to hear that I did this,” Mr. Russell said to air traffic controllers. “I would like to apologize to each and every one of them. Just a broken guy, got a few screws loose, I guess. Never really knew it until now.”
from post #10:
KSEA tower audio of the aircraft on RWY 16C: http://archive-server.liveatc.net/ks...2018-0230Z.mp3 (begins around 3:40)
from post #10:
KSEA tower audio of the aircraft on RWY 16C: http://archive-server.liveatc.net/ks...2018-0230Z.mp3 (begins around 3:40)
QX Q400 stolen by employee, crashed near SEA, no passengers onboard
Aug 11, 2018, 6:27 pm
#91
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AAG got off easy here, tragically enough, owing to the employee's mostly benign mindset. Last time AS suffered a flight incident resulting in death -- AS261 nearly 19 years ago -- the subsequent probe exposed manifold maintenance shortcomings and resulted in massive overhauls of procedures, process, and oversight. AAG ought to be braced for similar blowback out of this incident, and big changes in ramp security, access-to-aircraft rules, and associated oversight.
Aug 11, 2018, 8:03 pm
#92
Join Date: May 2013
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AAG got off easy here, tragically enough, owing to the employee's mostly benign mindset. Last time AS suffered a flight incident resulting in death -- AS261 nearly 19 years ago -- the subsequent probe exposed manifold maintenance shortcomings and resulted in massive overhauls of procedures, process, and oversight. AAG ought to be braced for similar blowback out of this incident, and big changes in ramp security, access-to-aircraft rules, and associated oversight.
Aug 11, 2018, 8:18 pm
#93
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This guy, yes. Another guy with equal access to aircraft and malicious intent? Different story. It's three or four minutes from SEA to the Columbia Tower or Safeco Field.
AAG got off easy here, tragically enough, owing to the employee's mostly benign mindset. Last time AS suffered a flight incident resulting in death -- AS261 nearly 19 years ago -- the subsequent probe exposed manifold maintenance shortcomings and resulted in massive overhauls of procedures, process, and oversight. AAG ought to be braced for similar blowback out of this incident, and big changes in ramp security, access-to-aircraft rules, and associated oversight.
AAG got off easy here, tragically enough, owing to the employee's mostly benign mindset. Last time AS suffered a flight incident resulting in death -- AS261 nearly 19 years ago -- the subsequent probe exposed manifold maintenance shortcomings and resulted in massive overhauls of procedures, process, and oversight. AAG ought to be braced for similar blowback out of this incident, and big changes in ramp security, access-to-aircraft rules, and associated oversight.
This was a terrible event, obviously this people needed help he did not receive but at the same time this is so hard to safeguard against.
Aug 11, 2018, 8:25 pm
#94
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Aug 11, 2018, 8:43 pm
#95
Join Date: Jul 2003
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This guy, yes. Another guy with equal access to aircraft and malicious intent? Different story. It's three or four minutes from SEA to the Columbia Tower or Safeco Field.
AAG got off easy here, tragically enough, owing to the employee's mostly benign mindset. Last time AS suffered a flight incident resulting in death -- AS261 nearly 19 years ago -- the subsequent probe exposed manifold maintenance shortcomings and resulted in massive overhauls of procedures, process, and oversight. AAG ought to be braced for similar blowback out of this incident, and big changes in ramp security, access-to-aircraft rules, and associated oversight.
AAG got off easy here, tragically enough, owing to the employee's mostly benign mindset. Last time AS suffered a flight incident resulting in death -- AS261 nearly 19 years ago -- the subsequent probe exposed manifold maintenance shortcomings and resulted in massive overhauls of procedures, process, and oversight. AAG ought to be braced for similar blowback out of this incident, and big changes in ramp security, access-to-aircraft rules, and associated oversight.
Aug 11, 2018, 8:43 pm
#96
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Aug 11, 2018, 9:56 pm
#98
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Rich: Ah minimum wage. We'll chalk it up to that. Maybe that will grease the gears a little bit with the higher-ups
Air traffic control: Ah Rich, don't say stuff like that.
Rich: I don't want to hurt anyone, I just want you to whisper sweet nothings into my ear.
Last edited by sfozrhfco; Aug 11, 2018 at 10:06 pm
Aug 11, 2018, 9:57 pm
#99
Join Date: Feb 2014
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Actually, no. US AF ground stations often still use pen and board aircraft stacks for managing ATC. They are at least a decade behind commercial ATC. Certain strategic level systems and airborne platforms have all sorts of wizzbang active and automated extras, but the ground stations are pretty much in the 1970's in terms of track & control.
Aug 11, 2018, 11:05 pm
#100
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Do you have military experience in this exact situation? I am not aware of any examples you could cite on US in History, other than possible the 9/11 plane in PA which if it happened worked out well.
This guy was clearly suicidal, listen to the tapes, He was not following instructions, specifically not to attempt a barrel roll for instance. Sometimes you have to look at the possible outcomes....when none of them are good. The chances this guys would even try to land the aircraft and his ability to do so were in serious question. You want to try and guide him back to Sea-Tac with that poor of skills and so close to downtown seattle? What if he just goes off at the last minute? If he was over open water, I would have been fine if they shot him down.....in fact would have preferred it
This guy was clearly suicidal, listen to the tapes, He was not following instructions, specifically not to attempt a barrel roll for instance. Sometimes you have to look at the possible outcomes....when none of them are good. The chances this guys would even try to land the aircraft and his ability to do so were in serious question. You want to try and guide him back to Sea-Tac with that poor of skills and so close to downtown seattle? What if he just goes off at the last minute? If he was over open water, I would have been fine if they shot him down.....in fact would have preferred it
Last edited by robsaw; Aug 11, 2018 at 11:10 pm Reason: clarify
Aug 11, 2018, 11:29 pm
#101
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Do you have military experience in this exact situation? I am not aware of any examples you could cite on US in History, other than possible the 9/11 plane in PA which if it happened worked out well.
This guy was clearly suicidal, listen to the tapes, He was not following instructions, specifically not to attempt a barrel roll for instance. Sometimes you have to look at the possible outcomes....when none of them are good. The chances this guys would even try to land the aircraft and his ability to do so were in serious question. You want to try and guide him back to Sea-Tac with that poor of skills and so close to downtown seattle? What if he just goes off at the last minute? If he was over open water, I would have been fine if they shot him down.....in fact would have preferred it
This guy was clearly suicidal, listen to the tapes, He was not following instructions, specifically not to attempt a barrel roll for instance. Sometimes you have to look at the possible outcomes....when none of them are good. The chances this guys would even try to land the aircraft and his ability to do so were in serious question. You want to try and guide him back to Sea-Tac with that poor of skills and so close to downtown seattle? What if he just goes off at the last minute? If he was over open water, I would have been fine if they shot him down.....in fact would have preferred it
But I’m glad the F-15s didn’t shoot it down. As noted, firing a 20mm cannon or Air-to-Air missiles over populated areas has severe risks associated with it. And while maybe it wasn’t a consideration at the time, I’m glad the F-15 pilots don’t have to live with the long term psychological effects of having shot down an airliner. There’s also the psychological effects of the local population witnessing an airliner being shot down by fighter jets too.
Aug 12, 2018, 7:22 am
#102
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Not saying it’s impossible, but any such system must consider the risk of inadvertently locking out legit access.
Aug 12, 2018, 8:04 am
#103
Join Date: May 2013
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Well, imagine a scenario where a pilot is trying to do an inflight engine restart, but can’t because the aircraft is asking for a token, and his SecurID keyfob just went out of sync.
Not saying it’s impossible, but any such system must consider the risk of inadvertently locking out legit access.
Aug 12, 2018, 8:16 am
#104
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Nah. Regrettably there are workplace suicides all the time - by mechanism this is just more spectacular than the rest. The FAA specs security - there will be nothing unique to AS nor SEA. They are unlikely to change medical screening - it's costly and not very reliable for this kind of thing. Responsible people won't try to tie this to workplace culture or wages & benefits. Like he said, he had a few screws loose.
Aug 12, 2018, 9:00 am
#105
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Exactly when were you going to be alright with him being shot down?