LGA and DCA Ending From DAL (Dallas Love Field)
Apr 23, 2018, 10:47 pm
#31
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Obviously. But I have a hard time believing they're getting any meaningful difference in yields between west coast DFW and west coast DAL.
That's an entirely different market for them - namely, home - than DAL-east coast.
I wasn't talking about DAL-LGA being sustainable. I was talking about west coast-DAL being sustainable, which I believe it to be.
I have no idea what Virgin America expected to achieve with DAL-east coast service; if you're competing with Southwest airlines across the hall, you're likely going to have to match their prices, going into their markets.
But, as I said, forward-bookings to DAL are pretty crowded, in my searches, and the prices are the same as DFW.
That's an entirely different market for them - namely, home - than DAL-east coast.
I wasn't talking about DAL-LGA being sustainable. I was talking about west coast-DAL being sustainable, which I believe it to be.
I have no idea what Virgin America expected to achieve with DAL-east coast service; if you're competing with Southwest airlines across the hall, you're likely going to have to match their prices, going into their markets.
But, as I said, forward-bookings to DAL are pretty crowded, in my searches, and the prices are the same as DFW.
AS is doing 5 dailies to DFW/DAL out of SEA. AS used to do 2x low season/3x high season SEA-DFW. WN added SEA-DAL service the last couple years, AA already had a ton of SEA-DFW service. So by any measure there's been seats added to the market.
Like CDKing said "crowded" is not "profitable". I could sell out A380s for a dollar a seat. They would be crowded. I'd lose money.
I have to wonder if AS is going to drop a DAL-SEA frequency...
Last edited by eponymous_coward; Apr 23, 2018 at 10:54 pm
Apr 23, 2018, 11:02 pm
#32
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This isn't really a surprise. AS made absolutely no efforts to retain any of the Dallas-based VX frequent flyers after taking over the routes and didn't do any promotion of DAL service to the general public, either. The general sense was that AS management didn't pay any attention to the DAL-based operation, for whatever reason. It was as if it was too far from Seattle... out of sight, out of mind. It was clear they didn't care about the service at all from day one, failing to make even the minimal effort it would have taken to maximize revenues in the short term, even if their ultimate plan to abandon the routes had already been decided.
In the overall scheme of AS' financial picture, probably not a big deal... but it was pretty stunning to witness how much money they left on the table out of sheer laziness/indifference, failing to do anything to monetize any of the valuable VX goodwill that had been created in the DAL market.
In the overall scheme of AS' financial picture, probably not a big deal... but it was pretty stunning to witness how much money they left on the table out of sheer laziness/indifference, failing to do anything to monetize any of the valuable VX goodwill that had been created in the DAL market.
And what should AS have been doing to maximize revenue or what money did they leave on the table? They were charging too low of a price? Not advertising? What exactly did they not do that they should have?
I don't fly through DAL and have no idea what's going on there (or was going on).
Apr 23, 2018, 11:03 pm
#33
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Because while it’s inconvenient to Ft. Worth pax, some pax in the Dallas area find Love Field more convenient. My argument is that an airline the size of AS with no real strong hold pressance in the DFW area or anywhere nearby, it doesn’t make sense for them to operate across two airports especially when they are only 10 miles apart. AS dosen’t have enough room to consolidate all ops over at DAL. DL meanwhile still has a huge FF base in DFW leftover from the old hub days and DL’s original expansion plans called for service to both the west and east coast unlike AS. DL would be able to support profitable opps at both DFW and DAL due to the large number of connections avalible at DL’s hubs to many domestic and international markets unlike AS p2p model it seems they are using at DAL. DL originally had the sublease gates in the first place until the DOJ abused their powers and demanded that AA give their gates to a “LCC” and only provided one option, VX. Now 4 years later the gates are back in the hands of a legacy carrier who won’t provide any service to the east coast and is definitely not good for compotition reasons as your only option now if going east and wanting to fly out of DAL is to take WN or fly on one of DLs limited flights out of DAL to ATL.
Apr 24, 2018, 7:07 am
#34
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From the NYC perspective, is this anything other than capitulation? I've taken this flight to DAL as it was an attractive alternative to flying AA to DFW or flying Southwest. Now I won't be able to. Alaska is not competitive to LAX or SFO anymore, and they are barely competitive to SEA, so unless you are trying to get to San Jose or Palm Springs, not a real reason to seek out Alaska ex NYC.
Apr 24, 2018, 7:17 am
#35
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I'm overcome with grief at losing my precious LGA-DAL non-stops. Flying out of DFW will easily increase my all in round-trip journey time by 1 1/2 hours roundtrip when factoring in: extra drive time, inconvenient Clear lane and/or longer TSA pre-check lines, increases aircraft taxi times, and occasion lengthy waits for jetbridge deployment (especially with AA). Very sad.
Southwest is a good airline with a solid product, but I won't use them for 3 1/2 hour flights.
Southwest is a good airline with a solid product, but I won't use them for 3 1/2 hour flights.
Apr 24, 2018, 7:23 am
#36
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That is likely true until AirTrain JFK and B6 exist, making JFK noticeably more convenient and much more domestically than it used to be. JFK is close enough (i.e. not really far from Manhattan like ISP), and B6 has enough service, that it is tougher for a number of ticket buyers to justify a significant price premium for LGA. And the competition for those remaining ticket buyers who can is stronger than ever, as DL was not as much of a player in NYC 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago, as it is now. And WN didn't fly to LGA at all 20 years ago; it does now.
Apr 24, 2018, 8:54 am
#37
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It's the right move for AS. There was no way they would ever make any money flying east form DAL. Those routes never made any sense, but that's why VX won't exist tomorrow. Giving those gates to VX was the best thing that could have happened to WN in trying to expand DAL. WN would love to get DL out of DAL since they in a position to actually compete with WN going both east and west.
Apr 24, 2018, 9:12 am
#38
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I just flew a midcon nonstop on WN on Friday. It was a life-changing experience, given that between the origin and destination I always used to stop in SAN, SLC, or MSP. It literally reduced my door to door travel time by almost 3 hours.
Apr 24, 2018, 2:08 pm
#39
Join Date: Jul 2001
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I'm overcome with grief at losing my precious LGA-DAL non-stops. Flying out of DFW will easily increase my all in round-trip journey time by 1 1/2 hours roundtrip when factoring in: extra drive time, inconvenient Clear lane and/or longer TSA pre-check lines, increases aircraft taxi times, and occasion lengthy waits for jetbridge deployment (especially with AA). Very sad.
Southwest is a good airline with a solid product, but I won't use them for 3 1/2 hour flights.
Southwest is a good airline with a solid product, but I won't use them for 3 1/2 hour flights.
Apr 24, 2018, 2:12 pm
#40
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Apr 24, 2018, 2:30 pm
#41
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Three airlines with a hub on the JFK end (so presumably they draw O/D and connecting passengers to JFK), one of which has a hub on BOTH ends (so there's potential XXX-DFW draw), two total frequencies.
Additional fun fact: DL flies 3x LGA-DFW and 1x JFK-DFW.
And VX/AS's record at drumming up DAL-NYC business on the route that IS popular was a flop.
Wouldn't be holding my breath, but OK...
Apr 24, 2018, 4:22 pm
#42
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Walkup fare for SEA-DFW 2 hours from now: $136. It's a T fare (read: not even eligible for an MVP GGU). $136 for SEA-Dallas as far as the eye can see this week (read: many seats being sold at > 10 cents per mile flown, AS loses money at that price).
AS is doing 5 dailies to DFW/DAL out of SEA. AS used to do 2x low season/3x high season SEA-DFW. WN added SEA-DAL service the last couple years, AA already had a ton of SEA-DFW service. So by any measure there's been seats added to the market.
Like CDKing said "crowded" is not "profitable". I could sell out A380s for a dollar a seat. They would be crowded. I'd lose money.
I have to wonder if AS is going to drop a DAL-SEA frequency...
AS is doing 5 dailies to DFW/DAL out of SEA. AS used to do 2x low season/3x high season SEA-DFW. WN added SEA-DAL service the last couple years, AA already had a ton of SEA-DFW service. So by any measure there's been seats added to the market.
Like CDKing said "crowded" is not "profitable". I could sell out A380s for a dollar a seat. They would be crowded. I'd lose money.
I have to wonder if AS is going to drop a DAL-SEA frequency...
I don't know why you continue to quote me at all; you're either not reading what I've written, or responding to someone else, or something.
You seem to think my point was that Dallas Love is profitable because the planes are full. I NEVER SAID THAT. What I said was that prices between Seattle and DFW and Seattle and DAL are SIMILAR. So if one is loss-making, so is the other. It has nothing to do with the viability of DAL.
And regarding dropping a frequency, I doubt it. They've recently scheduled additional frequencies to other west coast destinations, so I doubt very much that they couldn't make it work from their home base.
Apr 24, 2018, 5:15 pm
#43
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Walkup fare for SEA-DFW 2 hours from now: $136.
AS is doing 5 dailies to DFW/DAL out of SEA. AS used to do 2x low season/3x high season SEA-DFW. WN added SEA-DAL service the last couple years, AA already had a ton of SEA-DFW service. So by any measure there's been seats added to the market.
I don't think they'll drop SEA-DAL completely any more than I think they'll drop SEA-OAK or SEA-BUR . I do think they'll fine tune what they are sending to Dallas if the walkup fares on a nearly 1700 mile flight aren't great. It suggests that 5x SEA-Dallas might be a bit much given that WN added SEA-DAL not too long ago and AA always has a bazillion flights to DFW. They already downgauged a VX SEA-DAL flight to an OO flight. I guess they could drop a DFW frequency instead.
Last edited by eponymous_coward; Apr 24, 2018 at 5:23 pm
Apr 24, 2018, 6:38 pm
#44
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If AS wants to have a mini-hub in Dallas, there is plenty of room over at DFW for them to expand. There is no reason they need to "hoard" gates at DAL if they are worried they will never get them back. It just dosen't make sense for them to continue operating out of DAL. Some people who need to go to Ft. Worth, DAL is very inconvenient and DFW is a perfect place to operate out of as it's centrally located for everyone in the DFW area.
Because while it’s inconvenient to Ft. Worth pax, some pax in the Dallas area find Love Field more convenient. My argument is that an airline the size of AS with no real strong hold pressance in the DFW area or anywhere nearby, it doesn’t make sense for them to operate across two airports especially when they are only 10 miles apart. AS dosen’t have enough room to consolidate all ops over at DAL. DL meanwhile still has a huge FF base in DFW leftover from the old hub days and DL’s original expansion plans called for service to both the west and east coast unlike AS. DL would be able to support profitable opps at both DFW and DAL due to the large number of connections avalible at DL’s hubs to many domestic and international markets unlike AS p2p model it seems they are using at DAL. DL originally had the sublease gates in the first place until the DOJ abused their powers and demanded that AA give their gates to a “LCC” and only provided one option, VX. Now 4 years later the gates are back in the hands of a legacy carrier who won’t provide any service to the east coast and is definitely not good for compotition reasons as your only option now if going east and wanting to fly out of DAL is to take WN or fly on one of DLs limited flights out of DAL to ATL.
As they are only 10 miles apart, it's not like 10 miles crossing a bridge/tunnel where the uber expense goes up $30 more. And, I lived in Flower Mound which is closer to DFW, but went to DAL often. It wasn't a big deal with uber/lyft, but it comes down to personal preference.
The other point that I bolded from your quote isn't true. B6 and other smaller ULCC carriers (NK, F9, who ever else) didn't express interest in DAL. It was only DL, WN and VX that expressed interest. DL was eliminated initially and then it was between WN and VX, and VX was favored and ending up obtaining the gates.
So far, there has been no sign that AS is hoarding it's two gates at DAL and you are anticipating that it's just going to do that. It added SJC and SAN and now has more service and nonstop destinations out of DAL than DFW. It could shift the 1x DFW-PDX flight over to DAL, and the 4 daily flights from DFW-SEA. As others are mentioning, AS could downsize possibly to a total of 5 flights a day between Seattle-Dallas, as there is anyways too much AS capacity. Granted, DL could backfill and add SEA-DFW, so it's a decision AS will have to make in the end. DFW or DAL, or maybe just keep one gate at DAL and serve both airports. But I really doubt it will just "hoard" the DAL gates like you mention in your first post. There is no way it would even get away with doing that.
Last edited by beyondhere; Apr 24, 2018 at 6:47 pm
Apr 24, 2018, 6:58 pm
#45
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Why wouldn't AS have enough room to consolidate all ops over at DAL? From DFW, all it has is one daily from PDX, and 4 from SEA during the peak summer months.
As they are only 10 miles apart, it's not like 10 miles crossing a bridge/tunnel where the uber expense goes up $30 more. And, I lived in Flower Mound which is closer to DFW, but went to DAL often. It wasn't a big deal with uber/lyft, but it comes down to personal preference.
The other point that I bolded from your quote isn't true. B6 and other smaller ULCC carriers (NK, F9, who ever else) didn't express interest in DAL. It was only DL, WN and VX that expressed interest. DL was eliminated initially and then it was between WN and VX, and VX was favored and ending up obtaining the gates.
So far, there has been no sign that AS is hoarding it's two gates at DAL and you are anticipating that it's just going to do that. It added SJC and SAN and now has more service and nonstop destinations out of DAL than DFW. It could shift the 1x DFW-PDX flight over to DAL, and the 4 daily flights from DFW-SEA. As others are mentioning, AS could downsize possibly to a total of 5 flights a day between Seattle-Dallas, as there is anyways too much AS capacity. Granted, DL could backfill and add SEA-DFW, so it's a decision AS will have to make in the end. DFW or DAL, or maybe just keep one gate at DAL and serve both airports. But I really doubt it will just "hoard" the DAL gates like you mention in your first post. There is no way it would even get away with doing that.
As they are only 10 miles apart, it's not like 10 miles crossing a bridge/tunnel where the uber expense goes up $30 more. And, I lived in Flower Mound which is closer to DFW, but went to DAL often. It wasn't a big deal with uber/lyft, but it comes down to personal preference.
The other point that I bolded from your quote isn't true. B6 and other smaller ULCC carriers (NK, F9, who ever else) didn't express interest in DAL. It was only DL, WN and VX that expressed interest. DL was eliminated initially and then it was between WN and VX, and VX was favored and ending up obtaining the gates.
So far, there has been no sign that AS is hoarding it's two gates at DAL and you are anticipating that it's just going to do that. It added SJC and SAN and now has more service and nonstop destinations out of DAL than DFW. It could shift the 1x DFW-PDX flight over to DAL, and the 4 daily flights from DFW-SEA. As others are mentioning, AS could downsize possibly to a total of 5 flights a day between Seattle-Dallas, as there is anyways too much AS capacity. Granted, DL could backfill and add SEA-DFW, so it's a decision AS will have to make in the end. DFW or DAL, or maybe just keep one gate at DAL and serve both airports. But I really doubt it will just "hoard" the DAL gates like you mention in your first post. There is no way it would even get away with doing that.
