Legend717

Obviously. But I have a hard time believing they're getting any meaningful difference in yields between west coast DFW and west coast DAL.

That's an entirely different market for them - namely, home - than DAL-east coast.

I wasn't talking about DAL-LGA being sustainable. I was talking about west coast-DAL being sustainable, which I believe it to be.
I have no idea what Virgin America expected to achieve with DAL-east coast service; if you're competing with Southwest airlines across the hall, you're likely going to have to match their prices, going into their markets.
But, as I said, forward-bookings to DAL are pretty crowded, in my searches, and the prices are the same as DFW.

jk88usa

Having flown out of DAL many times in the past few months (only once on AS, to/from DCA), it’s just so much more convenient than DFW if you can make it work with your schedule. AS is counting on picking up all those business folks headed West who are perhaps looking for a more “premium” experience than WN...especially those on the East side or near downtown Dallas. When I look at walk up fares and seat maps going west, they definitely seem to be fairing pretty well. DCA and LGA on the other hand were complete wastes for AS, my flight on a Friday night maybe had 20 people onboard, and perhaps 30 returning.

That being said, I don’t see AS sticking around at DAL in the long run...even with good load factors West. Especially leasing these slots to their biggest competitor at DAL whom they’re trying to grab traffic from...it seems like it’s only a matter of time. Considering pretty much 80% of daily DAL traffic will soon be E175s, it clearly shows it doesn’t seem to be a priority for management

HKG_Flyer1

This isn't really a surprise. AS made absolutely no efforts to retain any of the Dallas-based VX frequent flyers after taking over the routes and didn't do any promotion of DAL service to the general public, either. The general sense was that AS management didn't pay any attention to the DAL-based operation, for whatever reason. It was as if it was too far from Seattle... out of sight, out of mind. It was clear they didn't care about the service at all from day one, failing to make even the minimal effort it would have taken to maximize revenues in the short term, even if their ultimate plan to abandon the routes had already been decided.

In the overall scheme of AS' financial picture, probably not a big deal... but it was pretty stunning to witness how much money they left on the table out of sheer laziness/indifference, failing to do anything to monetize any of the valuable VX goodwill that had been created in the DAL market.

Often1

Or clear strategic planning rather than a snapshot of one market.

HKG_Flyer1

Not saying that DAL didn't fit into their overall long term plan... but running a mini-hub out of DAL for well over a year following the merger without doing anything to maximize its revenues in the interim was sheer laziness/incompetence.

What part of strategic planning entails squandering the value of non-strategic assets? As a shareholder, I would be livid... they literally let a multi-million dollar operation with over a dozen medium haul flights per day operate with no apparent adult supervision because management was preoccupied with other matters. Pretty wild stuff.

chuck1

Can they legally transfer the slots to Southwest and essentially make DAL even more of a monopoly airport?
Will Delta sit by and take this?

eponymous_coward

Yeah, there was so much valuable VX goodwill that AUS-DAL was an amazing succ- oh, wait, no it wasn't.

But that's obviously AS's fau-oh, wait, no it wasn't, VX had problems with their route network out of DAL before AS bought them.

You know what creates goodwill? Being able to support more than a handful of destinations because your hard gate cap at an airport is two. VX just had a history of doing these random things ("We're doing a midcon hub! That at most can support maybe 20 flights a day! Plus let's buy some expensive DCA/LGA slots! WOOO! TURN ON THE MOOD LIGHTING!") that don't really make sense in the big picture.

The slots don't have to be used to fly LGA/DCA-DAL. AS has added multiple destinations out of DAL (SJC/SAN/PDX/SEA), and there are four other carriers serving Dallas-LaGuardia, plus multiple carriers serving Dallas-DC. So it's not like AS folded up their tents in DAL and handed the gates back to WN.

jk88usa

You can bet your bottom dollar DL is going to pitch a fit...and frankly this gives them more ground to do so.

DL has openly stated they want up to 13 flights a day out of DAL, even with AS downsizing there's no way those 2 can share and make it work with 2 gates. On the grounds of market share alone...I'm not sure how any federal court is going to rule in WN's favor in order to promote competition

MCO Flyer

These slots for WN are not at DAL. AS is ending LGA/DCA-DAL and is giving WN 6 slot pairs at LGA and 4 slot pairs at DCA where they can be used to fly anywhere within the 1250 mile DCA perimeter/1500 mile LGA perimeter. I think that WN should push in court to make AS to share their gate with DL as they are clearly downsizing in DAL and I can't see AS wanting to continue to operate out of DAL in the long term. The whole gate situation at DAL is bizarre and stupid and I don't understand why the Gates can't be "Common Use" at DAL to help maximize the # of flights possible.

chuck1

A slot is one arrival or departure. This means they are giving up two round-trips at DCA. They had 3 round-trips to DAL.
Doesn't this leave one within permiter slot?

Same things at LGA. They are giving up 6 slots to WN but had 4 flights to DAL - that's 8 slots.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

MCO Flyer

Technically they are giving up 12 slots (or 6 slot pairs) in your case. AS was only using 4 slots pairs at LGA and leased the other two to B6 but all 6 slot pairs are going to WN at LGA meaning B6 will have to cut 4 flights from LGA. I'm not sure what AS is doing right now with the extra slot pair they have at DCA but all of them are going to WN.

Toshbaf

Smart move by AS and hopefully with an eye for the future. Selling the slots would be forfeiting the future but it's for 10 years, enough time for AS to develop a hub in PIT, CLE, or somewhere. Also smart is the provision that if LGA Sunday to Friday perimeter rule is relaxed, AS can terminate the slot leases.

AS cannot operate a DAL hub with just 2 gates. I tried armchair CEO'ing and I could not figure a way to work out a DAL with only 2 gates, other than a scissors hub.

I see that AS is not giving up the 2 gates at DAL. This is good. If AS gives up the gates, it can never get them back. If it leases them out, that is no way to eventually get them back because nothing would have changed.....still 2 gates.

eponymous_coward

California is indeed "somewhere", and oh my do they have work to do: in NONE of their four CA cities where they have existing major service as a hub or focus city (SFO/LAX/SJC/SAN) do they even have 15% market share at that airport. In fact, I think that's the entire point of going "naaaah, we'll take a raincheck on LGA/DCA inside perimeter slots". They could spend a decade working on that, easy. Build that up before it's time to go East.

MCO Flyer

If AS wants to have a mini-hub in Dallas, there is plenty of room over at DFW for them to expand. There is no reason they need to "hoard" gates at DAL if they are worried they will never get them back. It just dosen't make sense for them to continue operating out of DAL. Some people who need to go to Ft. Worth, DAL is very inconvenient and DFW is a perfect place to operate out of as it's centrally located for everyone in the DFW area.

beyondhere

If DAL is so inconvenient to Ft. Worth, then DL shouldn't bother with it.