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As Southwest Airlines Enters Hawaii, Alaska Airlines May Be the Biggest Loser

As Southwest Airlines Enters Hawaii, Alaska Airlines May Be the Biggest Loser

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Old Feb 26, 18, 10:16 pm
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Troopers View Post
AS discontinued the Tues and Thurs OAK-HNL flights, previously daily.
Those come and go it seems from OAK...
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Old Feb 26, 18, 10:55 pm
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Originally Posted by diver858 View Post
Much of that WN growth has been on relatively short flights, or connections between secondary, under-served airports. I find it hard to believe that open seating complications, lack of catering, seat power outlets will work well for families on 5+ hour flights.
Really?!? Have you looked at WN's route map lately? The shorter route frequencies have been cut dramatically. They are flying to major cities (e.g. BOS with cuts at MHT and PVD). Their stage length has increased significantly over the past decade. WN already flies 5+ hour flights and have the same large load factors that all the other airlines have. Lack of catering is a problem on all airlines. AA routinely runs out of BOB by row 15 -- you really can't count on having it. At least AS has pre-order for BOB.
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Old Feb 27, 18, 10:03 am
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I see our resident troll has begun to chime in with outdated WN information again. Underserved airports? Short flights?

The $99 companion fare AS has is ok if you fly once a year (and AS doesn't end all their routes!), but it's definitely not the most cost effective thing if you're flying places more than once a year. Having the WN CP where someone comes along for $10 r/t is an incredible deal. Only thing better is employee travel (and non rev really sucks these days unless you can get a jumpseat).
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Old Feb 27, 18, 10:45 am
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Realistically, AS need to focus on beefing up their SFO/SJC routes, and discontinue OAK, it's the weakest network of the SFO area airports. I think AS might have temporary gains with Hawaiian currently having difficulties with A321neo engines but AS should plan their exits out of this airport.

On a side note, VX/AS should feel lucky knowing that VX 321neo engine is manufactured by CFM rather than the troubled P&W engines.

Jiburi

Last edited by jiburi; Feb 27, 18 at 10:53 am
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Old Feb 27, 18, 11:10 am
  #35  
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Originally Posted by diver858 View Post
Much of that WN growth has been on relatively short flights, or connections between secondary, under-served airports. I find it hard to believe that open seating complications, lack of catering, seat power outlets will work well for families on 5+ hour flights.
Seems to work so far, 700 planes after starting out. Plenty of WN routes that are longer than a few hundred miles.

Originally Posted by diver858 View Post
Interesting data. Keep in mind that WN pulled a DL back in 2015, made WGA redemption rates variable So, How Bad Was Southwest's Recent Devaluation? - One Mile at a Time. So while Kelly will likely allow WGA redemption if/when they FINALLY start Hawaii service, I believe it is reasonable to expect poor valuations.
Will be fun to watch all of the whining and moaning in the WN forum when they see WGA Hawaii redemption rates - particularly during peak holiday travel periods.
WGA isn't going to be there in a lot of quantities during peak times (which is an easy way to enforce that without jiggering too much with point valuations, Anytime and Business Select), but if AS can handle coach fares of $179 during parts of the year, no reason why WN can't handle them. Hawaii will be expensive in peak season, quelle surprise... though with a companion pass it becomes pretty attractive as a peak season option.

Originally Posted by tusphotog View Post
I see our resident troll has begun to chime in with outdated WN information again. Underserved airports? Short flights?

The $99 companion fare AS has is ok if you fly once a year (and AS doesn't end all their routes!), but it's definitely not the most cost effective thing if you're flying places more than once a year. Having the WN CP where someone comes along for $10 r/t is an incredible deal. Only thing better is employee travel (and non rev really sucks these days unless you can get a jumpseat).
WN is admittedly not everyone's cup of tea, but they serve a LOT of tea, and it's not because everyone hates them.

I suspect AS will do OK when it gets down to it; they've had 10 years in some of these markets and they're not going away in SJC/SFO/LAX/SAN.
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Old Feb 27, 18, 11:17 am
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Originally Posted by tusphotog View Post
The $99 companion fare AS has is ok if you fly once a year (and AS doesn't end all their routes!), but it's definitely not the most cost effective thing if you're flying places more than once a year. Having the WN CP where someone comes along for $10 r/t is an incredible deal.
All very true. But I think there is far more once-a-year Hawaii traffic than there is traffic from people who make multiple annual trips to Hawaii, which lessens the advantage of the Companion Pass. (Not to say the WN Companion Pass isn't an incredible value, although in normal years you need to earn a ton of WN points to get it, which is not true of the AS companion certificates.)
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Old Feb 27, 18, 11:22 am
  #37  
 
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Originally Posted by tusphotog View Post
I see our resident troll has begun to chime in with outdated WN information again. Underserved airports? Short flights?

The $99 companion fare AS has is ok if you fly once a year (and AS doesn't end all their routes!), but it's definitely not the most cost effective thing if you're flying places more than once a year. Having the WN CP where someone comes along for $10 r/t is an incredible deal. Only thing better is employee travel (and non rev really sucks these days unless you can get a jumpseat).
No single FF program fits everyone. I travel significantly more than once a year; all for leisure. I pay for domestic (we will include Canada here as I am from BC) and fly business or first internationally on awards. I happen to love the annual companion certificate and easily utilize the 5 I get each year. I can extract a lot of value out of them, sometimes in excess of $1000.00. Last October we did an 11 day 15K+ mileage run / mini vacation from YLW-SEA-ANC-LAX-SJO-LAX-SEA-PVR-LAX-SEA-YLW which as MVPG at the time added 31K+ RDM each to our accounts. I used GGU's requiring only one each for ANC-LAX-SJO and one each for SJO-LAX-SEA-PVR. The PVR-LAX segment was a complimentary upgrade for both of us and we were in Premium for the LAX-SEA segment. All 10 segments for $99.00 and taxes with upgrades to F on 6 of the 8 mainline flights was nice while saving well over $1K. We both reached 75K. Along with that 8 more GGU's and 50K RDM bonus each. I used my 50K bonus to book CX J YVR-HKG//HKG-DPS for my brother to meet us in Bali. We are on the final leg of an 8-week around the world vacation that started January 1st. We used our Mileage Plan miles to book business and First on EK (SFO-DXB/26 days/DXB-JNB in J), CX (JNB-HKG/3 days/HKG-BOS in J&F) and QF SYD-DRW domestic J), AA miles for EY F apartment AUH-SYD & SPG for SQ SIN-DXB. A companion certificate got us from YLW-SEA-SFO and BOS-SEA-PHX-SEA-YLW on immediate upgrades to the front of the plane. If you fly primarily domestic economy, perhaps the WN Companion Pass works well for you. AS suits us very well.
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Old Feb 27, 18, 12:08 pm
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Originally Posted by tusphotog View Post
I see our resident troll has begun to chime in with outdated WN information again. Underserved airports? Short flights?
Just can't keep up with all of those newfangled gadgets you kids use nowadays. Just checked my flight guide, appears WN does not offer service to 3 of the 5 busiest US airports: DFW (#4), JFK (#5), ORD (#3). What other major US carrier ignores all 3?

Without the benefit of actual flight stats, I trust my empirical observations. Anyone who sits in the WN satellite or aux gates in SAN will see a significant majority of intra-California, or less than 2 hour (DEN, LAS, PHX) flights. Sure, there is the occasional BWI, DAL and MDW.

Originally Posted by tusphotog View Post
The $99 companion fare AS has is ok if you fly once a year (and AS doesn't end all their routes!), but it's definitely not the most cost effective thing if you're flying places more than once a year. Having the WN CP where someone comes along for $10 r/t is an incredible deal. Only thing better is employee travel (and non rev really sucks these days unless you can get a jumpseat).
Twice per year - wife and I both have our own credit cards. As an elite, it is still not too tough to use the companion fare to buy up to first class.
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Old Feb 27, 18, 12:55 pm
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Originally Posted by diver858 View Post
Just can't keep up with all of those newfangled gadgets you kids use nowadays. Just checked my flight guide, appears WN does not offer service to 3 of the 5 busiest US airports: DFW (#4), JFK (#5), ORD (#3). What other major US carrier ignores all 3?
I realize your schtick is hating WN with a burning passion, but besides the fact that they serve LGA and EWR, do you seriously think it's a mark against them that they use alternatives to DFW and ORD? DAL and MDW aren't three-gate airports out in the boonies.
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Old Feb 27, 18, 1:11 pm
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Southwest sure had quite the effect on all their Seattle routes _ How many markets did they drop out of SEA & PDX?!?
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Old Feb 27, 18, 1:18 pm
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It makes total sense to me to cut redundant routes between VX and AS as VX gets more and more integrated into AS. And other routes, if they don't have the traffic makes sense to cut those too. I would rather have a profitable healthy airline than one that has a bunch of unprofitable routes just to have them.
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Old Feb 27, 18, 1:27 pm
  #42  
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Originally Posted by diver858 View Post
Just can't keep up with all of those newfangled gadgets you kids use nowadays. Just checked my flight guide, appears WN does not offer service to 3 of the 5 busiest US airports: DFW (#4), JFK (#5), ORD (#3). What other major US carrier ignores all 3?
They have a major hub in DAL. That's just a crazy straw man argument for an airline that started OUT serving Texas and Texas alone, and whose corporate HQ is in Dallas.

They serve CHI and NYC just fine (MDW, EWR and LGA). Their NYC airports are the same ones UA serves. I guess if you squint hard you could call ISP NYC too.

Originally Posted by diver858 View Post
Anyone who sits in the WN satellite or aux gates in SAN will see a significant majority of intra-California, or less than 2 hour (DEN, LAS, PHX) flights. Sure, there is the occasional BWI, DAL and MDW.
This statement is probably true of (insert airline and airport here). Top 10 destinations from SFO involve LAX, SAN, SEA, PDX, DEN, LAS. SEA has zero transcon destinations in their top 10 unless you add EWR+JFK to make NYC (at which point you can add ORD and MDW to get CHI, LAX, BUR, SNA and ONT to make QLA, and so on).
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Old Feb 27, 18, 1:27 pm
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Originally Posted by jiburi View Post
Realistically, AS need to focus on beefing up their SFO/SJC routes, and discontinue OAK, it's the weakest network of the SFO area airports. I think AS might have temporary gains with Hawaiian currently having difficulties with A321neo engines but AS should plan their exits out of this airport.
Dropping OAK-Hawaii is plausible, if not likely, but I don't think there's any reason to think they'd drop the basic SEA/PDX service they currently offer
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Old Feb 27, 18, 1:38 pm
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Originally Posted by eponymous_coward View Post
Since when do AS Hawaii awards fluctuate rationally with price/inventory? The nonstop is a less expensive cash ticket but costs almost 2x more in miles. The W bucket is open on the one-stop, but it's not open on the less expensive nonstop flight. This took me something like two seconds to find. Since when does WN price nonstops nearly twice as much as one-stops on WGA awards if the cash price is LESS?
In general, the W bucket is open as lower buckets are open. You're always going to find anomalies, especially when AS lets you route awards with routes not permitted in the fare rules of cheaper buckets. It's obviously not dollar for dollar as it is with WN.

Same date as you picked. SFO is cheaper than OAK for cash. It's also cheaper for miles.


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Old Feb 27, 18, 1:39 pm
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Originally Posted by eponymous_coward View Post
They have a major hub in DAL. That's just a crazy straw man argument for an airline that started OUT serving Texas and Texas alone, and whose corporate HQ is in Dallas.

They serve CHI and NYC just fine (MDW, EWR and LGA). Their NYC airports are the same ones UA serves. I guess if you squint hard you could call ISP NYC too.
Yeah. WN used to serve secondary airports only even when the primary airport was unequivocally more convenient for most business travellers (BWI instead of DCA, ISP instead of LGA/EWR/JFK, PVD/MHT instead of BOS, etc). Now, the only cities I can think of in which WN serves only the secondary airport are cities in which the secondary airport is at least arguably more convenient for business travellers (MDW, DAL, HOU). I suppose MIA vs FLL is one place in which WN doesn't serve the main airport, but I think FLL is competitive in convenience (I've never been to South Florida, so I really don't know) and it's such an AA fortress and not really a place to hang one's hat on the argument that WN serves secondary airports.
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