Disgruntled AS Employees: "It's a race to the bottom."
Jan 21, 2018, 11:20 am
#136
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Bay Area, CA
Programs: UA Plat 2MM; AS MVP Gold 75K
Posts: 35,068
I did a mileage run SEA-BOS-SEA (AS12/AS15) on 13JAN and the trips were flown with a '738' instead of the usual '739.' At 72 hours before departure of each segment there were four F seats showing available on AS's website and the fare was $1,069.
On the outbound I was 7th of 20-something on the upgrade waitlist and I don't know if anyone received an upgrade to F as I hadn't tracked the seats close-in. I did, however, get upgraded on the return and the email was sent 9h 11m before departure. I was very surprised given that I'm "only" MVPG and I had booked an R class fare. I know of two others who were upgraded on the BOS-SEA leg. Doesn't seem that AS had much luck selling seats at $1,069 a pop.
And while the F service and catering were good, and I was comfortable enough on the flight, I can't imagine paying $1,000 or more for that experience.
On the outbound I was 7th of 20-something on the upgrade waitlist and I don't know if anyone received an upgrade to F as I hadn't tracked the seats close-in. I did, however, get upgraded on the return and the email was sent 9h 11m before departure. I was very surprised given that I'm "only" MVPG and I had booked an R class fare. I know of two others who were upgraded on the BOS-SEA leg. Doesn't seem that AS had much luck selling seats at $1,069 a pop.
And while the F service and catering were good, and I was comfortable enough on the flight, I can't imagine paying $1,000 or more for that experience.
On another day, the same thing could happen, and that's a reasonable fare compared to Y, or someone just has to go.
I mean, they could sell last minute F tickets for $250, and I bet they would have unloaded all 4. Or they could sell them for $1,000 and hope to capture one. More if they're lucky. At $250 a pop, there are probably Golds on the plane who paid less and could change their ticket for free, to fly confirmed F for $250, get the bonus miles, and get a fare difference (yes, they'd literally have to give money back if they did that). Not to mention, erode any last minute Y sales. So there has to be some level of integrity to the pricing as well.
Jan 21, 2018, 6:29 pm
#137
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: NYC
Posts: 280
But that's the art of revenue management.
On another day, the same thing could happen, and that's a reasonable fare compared to Y, or someone just has to go.
I mean, they could sell last minute F tickets for $250, and I bet they would have unloaded all 4. Or they could sell them for $1,000 and hope to capture one. More if they're lucky. At $250 a pop, there are probably Golds on the plane who paid less and could change their ticket for free, to fly confirmed F for $250, get the bonus miles, and get a fare difference (yes, they'd literally have to give money back if they did that). Not to mention, erode any last minute Y sales. So there has to be some level of integrity to the pricing as well.
On another day, the same thing could happen, and that's a reasonable fare compared to Y, or someone just has to go.
I mean, they could sell last minute F tickets for $250, and I bet they would have unloaded all 4. Or they could sell them for $1,000 and hope to capture one. More if they're lucky. At $250 a pop, there are probably Golds on the plane who paid less and could change their ticket for free, to fly confirmed F for $250, get the bonus miles, and get a fare difference (yes, they'd literally have to give money back if they did that). Not to mention, erode any last minute Y sales. So there has to be some level of integrity to the pricing as well.
Jan 21, 2018, 6:38 pm
#138
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: SEA, but up and down the coast a lot
Programs: Oceanic Airlines Gold Elite
Posts: 20,386
It’s not across the board, unless B6 decides they want new hubs in SEA/SFO/LAX. Even DL isn’t flying D1 on SEA-IAD or LAX-TPA.
Jan 21, 2018, 6:48 pm
#139
Join Date: Jan 2014
Programs: AS, QF, SK
Posts: 127
Count me as one of the ship jumpers. I had originally abandoned AS after a bad flight incident in 2016 left me literally physically injured to the point that I had to go back and have a 2nd shoulder surgery to correct damage done as a result of that flight which undid the work done on an earlier surgery, and went over to VX and occasionally DL for awhile. Obviously, AS bought VX, and I still had Gold w/ AS even with not traveling the last quarter of the year because of the injury, so I started riding their metal again as I had cooled off. 2 weeks into the new year, and I've decided to just cut the cord and go w/ DL full time. The reasons are pretty numerous
1 (Not related to the news article): The purchase of VX was a pointless mistake. AS has always been super convenient if you wanted to get FROM one of 3 or 4 cities (SEA, LAX, SFO and to a lesser extent PDX) to somewhere east, but a hassle and a half to get from anywhere east to anywhere else. VX didn't address that at all. I get they had to buy it because if B6 had gotten it, they'd have the full service network that so many of us crave, but there was no value add as an AS customer getting redundant routes or easier access to San Francisco, which has never been a problem. My biz circuit got an adjustment last year in the form of needing to get to DEN with some regularity and occasionally MCO and IAD, and there's no easy way to do it without flying hours in the wrong direction to connect thanks to the death of the DL partnership and the sad state of the AA one. Frankly, the network stinks if your route doesn't involve a Pacific Ocean view at some point, and not only have they not addressed that, but they've shown no interest in doing so. I mean really, 3 hubs and they're all on one ocean coast? Set one up in Denver (the area's growing just as fast as Seattle) and at least set it up so people starting there don't have to fly 3 hours in the wrong direction to get east. It's not like UA's stranglehold there is based upon anything other than the fact that only WN has bothered to make a run at it. This airline wants to pretend it's one of the big boys, but it refuses to act like it. Anything east of the Rockies is treated like it's diseased in some way, and the only cure is to fly directly to a PST city.
2 (Related to the article): I've noticed a service degradation since 2016 (and even before I took a break from AS in 2016 from years prior). Everything seems to take longer. I've had numerous subpar boardroom experiences. I've had situations where my reservation was with 2 people, only I would get an upgrade after already being seated, and then there being problems with our reservations being broken apart for the return flight. About the only thing that's stayed consistently good is the Gold customer service line. If that's because pilots are disgruntled and flight attendants feel as though management is making their jobs more difficult, I respect that and agree with them but that's a "them" (as in, AS as a whole) problem, not a "me" problem. It should be handled in such a way that it doesn't have effect on what I'm doing or where I'm trying to go. Yes, I've noticed I don't always get those cookies, but that doesn't even hit my top 5 of complaints. I appreciate FA's willingness to fight for my cookies, but there are other things I'd rather see them take up the mantle for.
3 (Also related to the article): This was the straw that broke the camel's back for me: The transcon product is positively TERRIBLE. Sitting in the back of the bus is out, because those slimeline seats are like sitting on concrete and intolerable for 6 straight hours. But the F class offering is just positively abysmal. Right out of the gate this year, I had to do a SEA>MCO>DEN>LAX>SEA circuit (which required multiple carriers, cause MCO>DEN is leprosy to AS unless you want to fly over DEN to SEA and then hop on another plane back to DEN, and DEN>LAX requires a stop in SFO if you want to stay on one company's metal). But the more obvious problem? I'm sitting on one of AS's longest and most profitable routes. I paid almost $1,100 for a seat that doesn't lie flat or even have the extra legroom cause it's still got the 4 rows of F. What's the service? Fricking GRANOLA. For a 1K+ seat? That's what leadership decided was appropriate? Go ahead, ask for a fruit and cheese platter on full-fare F on that flight - you'll get told that you'll have to pay for it. Are you fricking kidding me? I feel bad for the FA in that situation cause it's not her fault, but in the back of my head I'm thinking the company as a whole can go f*** itself.
4 (Related) And yes, the east coast gates are horrendous. I loathed flying AS into BOS or JFK, and PHL isn't exactly a box of rainbows, either. Maybe if they weren't so focused on staying largely regional they'd have more pull to not be placed in the worst parts of every possible airport out there. Thank god B6 seems to be wanting to address this.
5 (Pseudo-related): The partnership quality has really degraded, too. Obviously DL was a big hit, but I seem to recall AS at one time being teamed up with something like 37 airlines. What are they at now, about 19? Partner redemption has always been tricky, but is positively annoying these days.
It's a real shame, but current leadership just can't get out of its own way. They've been riding on past reputation for quite a while now, but I think everyone is finally starting to wise up to the fact that they've lost "it".
1 (Not related to the news article): The purchase of VX was a pointless mistake. AS has always been super convenient if you wanted to get FROM one of 3 or 4 cities (SEA, LAX, SFO and to a lesser extent PDX) to somewhere east, but a hassle and a half to get from anywhere east to anywhere else. VX didn't address that at all. I get they had to buy it because if B6 had gotten it, they'd have the full service network that so many of us crave, but there was no value add as an AS customer getting redundant routes or easier access to San Francisco, which has never been a problem. My biz circuit got an adjustment last year in the form of needing to get to DEN with some regularity and occasionally MCO and IAD, and there's no easy way to do it without flying hours in the wrong direction to connect thanks to the death of the DL partnership and the sad state of the AA one. Frankly, the network stinks if your route doesn't involve a Pacific Ocean view at some point, and not only have they not addressed that, but they've shown no interest in doing so. I mean really, 3 hubs and they're all on one ocean coast? Set one up in Denver (the area's growing just as fast as Seattle) and at least set it up so people starting there don't have to fly 3 hours in the wrong direction to get east. It's not like UA's stranglehold there is based upon anything other than the fact that only WN has bothered to make a run at it. This airline wants to pretend it's one of the big boys, but it refuses to act like it. Anything east of the Rockies is treated like it's diseased in some way, and the only cure is to fly directly to a PST city.
2 (Related to the article): I've noticed a service degradation since 2016 (and even before I took a break from AS in 2016 from years prior). Everything seems to take longer. I've had numerous subpar boardroom experiences. I've had situations where my reservation was with 2 people, only I would get an upgrade after already being seated, and then there being problems with our reservations being broken apart for the return flight. About the only thing that's stayed consistently good is the Gold customer service line. If that's because pilots are disgruntled and flight attendants feel as though management is making their jobs more difficult, I respect that and agree with them but that's a "them" (as in, AS as a whole) problem, not a "me" problem. It should be handled in such a way that it doesn't have effect on what I'm doing or where I'm trying to go. Yes, I've noticed I don't always get those cookies, but that doesn't even hit my top 5 of complaints. I appreciate FA's willingness to fight for my cookies, but there are other things I'd rather see them take up the mantle for.
3 (Also related to the article): This was the straw that broke the camel's back for me: The transcon product is positively TERRIBLE. Sitting in the back of the bus is out, because those slimeline seats are like sitting on concrete and intolerable for 6 straight hours. But the F class offering is just positively abysmal. Right out of the gate this year, I had to do a SEA>MCO>DEN>LAX>SEA circuit (which required multiple carriers, cause MCO>DEN is leprosy to AS unless you want to fly over DEN to SEA and then hop on another plane back to DEN, and DEN>LAX requires a stop in SFO if you want to stay on one company's metal). But the more obvious problem? I'm sitting on one of AS's longest and most profitable routes. I paid almost $1,100 for a seat that doesn't lie flat or even have the extra legroom cause it's still got the 4 rows of F. What's the service? Fricking GRANOLA. For a 1K+ seat? That's what leadership decided was appropriate? Go ahead, ask for a fruit and cheese platter on full-fare F on that flight - you'll get told that you'll have to pay for it. Are you fricking kidding me? I feel bad for the FA in that situation cause it's not her fault, but in the back of my head I'm thinking the company as a whole can go f*** itself.
4 (Related) And yes, the east coast gates are horrendous. I loathed flying AS into BOS or JFK, and PHL isn't exactly a box of rainbows, either. Maybe if they weren't so focused on staying largely regional they'd have more pull to not be placed in the worst parts of every possible airport out there. Thank god B6 seems to be wanting to address this.
5 (Pseudo-related): The partnership quality has really degraded, too. Obviously DL was a big hit, but I seem to recall AS at one time being teamed up with something like 37 airlines. What are they at now, about 19? Partner redemption has always been tricky, but is positively annoying these days.
It's a real shame, but current leadership just can't get out of its own way. They've been riding on past reputation for quite a while now, but I think everyone is finally starting to wise up to the fact that they've lost "it".
Jan 21, 2018, 11:01 pm
#140
Join Date: May 2006
Location: TUS/PDX
Programs: WN CP/A-List, AS MVPG75K
Posts: 5,798
The AA slimline seats have even made it to F on the PMUS A321s. Those weren't always well kept, but man those seats were much better than anything the current AA is flying.
No AS competitor is flying flat beds on SEA-MCO. Or on the majority of AS transcon nonstops for that matter (JFK/BOS/DCA are the exception).
Jan 22, 2018, 12:37 am
#142
Join Date: May 2003
Location: SFO, mostly
Posts: 2,204
Yeah, UA has them as well. Seems to be the way forward. I haven't found the AS ones to be any harder or more slab-like than the others. If anything, the seat cushion padding on AS may be slightly better. DL has slightly thicker seats but this results in more restricted legroom.
Jan 22, 2018, 10:31 am
#143
Join Date: Jan 2017
Programs: AS 100K, Marriott Titanium, Delta Gold, United Silver
Posts: 250
I think the Alaska model is highly appealing to business travelers such as myself. I fly transcons 1-2x/month plus many shorter flights (last year, had already requalified for Gold75 by summer). At my company, we're not allowed to purchase first class travel. Most of my flights aren't booked until the week before, or often only days before my travel, so I would guess the last min pricing of my coach fares is not that different from first class pricing ($$$). I choose Alaska for most of my business travel due to the generous upgrade policies and most of my personal travel with them due to the lack of change fees for gold75. I would guess there are a number of frequent travelers who fit into the same category as me and I don't think this is an unreasonable segment for Alaska to target
Jan 22, 2018, 2:25 pm
#144
Join Date: Jul 2017
Programs: AS MVPG; Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 145
For the record, I've been given a cheese plate in F with no questions on a mid-con red eye flight.
I fly PDX - MCO red eye a LOT (via SEA on the outbound, straight shot on the way back). I'd pay for a lie-flat, and struggle to sleep in F as it is. It's not the end of the world, but the transcon product isn't exactly astounding.
I fly PDX - MCO red eye a LOT (via SEA on the outbound, straight shot on the way back). I'd pay for a lie-flat, and struggle to sleep in F as it is. It's not the end of the world, but the transcon product isn't exactly astounding.
Jan 22, 2018, 2:35 pm
#145
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Over the Bay Bridge, CA
Programs: Jumbo mas
Posts: 38,628
For the record, I've been given a cheese plate in F with no questions on a mid-con red eye flight.
I fly PDX - MCO red eye a LOT (via SEA on the outbound, straight shot on the way back). I'd pay for a lie-flat, and struggle to sleep in F as it is. It's not the end of the world, but the transcon product isn't exactly astounding.
I fly PDX - MCO red eye a LOT (via SEA on the outbound, straight shot on the way back). I'd pay for a lie-flat, and struggle to sleep in F as it is. It's not the end of the world, but the transcon product isn't exactly astounding.
Let's be realistic here. The vast majority of us, when in a premium cabin, are not on one of the fancyplane routes (of which AS will not be competitive, comfort-wise). However, the vast majority of routes do not offer such a seat ... or better wine selection ... or better food selection.
Jan 22, 2018, 2:57 pm
#146
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: SEA, but up and down the coast a lot
Programs: Oceanic Airlines Gold Elite
Posts: 20,386
Let's be realistic here. The vast majority of us, when in a premium cabin, are not on one of the fancyplane routes (of which AS will not be competitive, comfort-wise). However, the vast majority of routes do not offer such a seat ... or better wine selection ... or better food selection.
AS wasn't willing to run a fancyplane subfleet given that VX's fancyplane fleet simply didn't work on AS's route structure (FWIW, VX actually gave up on LAX-PDX and reduced PDX-SFO to 1x at one point- LAX is PDX's top destination). I guess we can call that a race to the bottom.
Last edited by eponymous_coward; Jan 22, 2018 at 3:09 pm
Jan 22, 2018, 3:29 pm
#148
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: SEA, but up and down the coast a lot
Programs: Oceanic Airlines Gold Elite
Posts: 20,386
Right. I wonder why they ran short on planes...
Virgin America Reduces A320 Order To Slow Its Growth Commercial Aviation content from Aviation Week
PS: and they used DAL to fly some disastrous AUS-DAL service instead of PDX-LAX, didn't they?
After 6 months, Virgin America ending daily Austin-Dallas flights
(AS didn't keep DAL-LAS either.)
Let's not pretend that VX did everything right and AS can't do anything right...
Last edited by eponymous_coward; Jan 22, 2018 at 3:36 pm
Jan 22, 2018, 7:48 pm
#149
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend, Moderator, Information Desk, Ambassador, Alaska Airlines
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: FAI
Programs: AS MVP Gold100K, AS 1MM, Maika`i Card, AGR, HH Gold, Hertz PC, Marriott Titanium LTG, CO, 7H, BA, 8E
Posts: 42,953
Jan 22, 2018, 8:01 pm
#150
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: portland, oregon
Programs: alaska, united, air france, lufthansa,delta, starwood
Posts: 382
I flew paid PDX-ORD RT in F in the last 5 days. Flight Attendants on both segments were terrific, and on the flight home, was terrific +. 41" pitch was super. The baggage delivery was super efficient. The food and digiplayer were meh, actually the food from ORD-PDX was horrible...some kind of beef on rice... but it did the trick. I am sticking w/Alaska on any routes where I can fly them non-stop---and relative to the options, their FC fares are reasonable.