ucdtim17

Different rules for SFO than for other markets I imagine. Need to make a big splash and gain as large a toehold as possible; not worry about whether routes are really the most profitable use of a given plane and crew.

alphaeagle

It better happen, or can say goodbye to many more flights as US Airlines keep losing pilots with no way to replace them.

Paying pilots more won't fix it, 1500 hours of flying time is years of minimum wage pay (at best, more likely you'll be paying to fly most of that time rather than getting paid to fly). Not many people can afford to do that no matter what the starting pay will be once you reach that magical 1500 number.

Not to mention, who wants someone who has spent years developing bad habits under very little training or supervision requirements to fly the plane they are on?

tusphotog

Actually, when your competition pays first year pilots more than Horizon, then yes, paying pilots would help to fix the issue. The problem is they didn't (or wouldn't) acknowledge this issue until the damage was done. Then you've got issues with Horizon's scheduling, crew bases, cost of living (PDX/SEA bases at least), QOL, upgrade times, training, lack of flow to Alaska etc. As pilots leave for mainline carriers, you start to get gaps in your coverage.

Horizon has fixed the pay part at least, bringing it in line with its competitors, plus adding some signing bonuses. The issue now is the candidates they're getting aren't as well trained as they should be, so there's either a lot of wash outs or people going back to the box for more practice. This is obviously a very, very good thing, since it means they're still upholding some standards, and not just pushing people through to fly their lines.

This issue got started several years ago, long before VX came into the picture. It's really sad since Horizon was often looked at as an exceptionally run carrier, with excellent training, excellent pilots and happy workers. And honestly, it wouldn't surprise me to see the rest of the E75s go to Skywest and QX have a small fleet of them.

alphaeagle

I don't think it would have mattered too much, though yeah would not have hurt if they increased their pay sooner. Other regional carriers have been losing pilots just as much as QX has and have the same hiring issues. Horizon had the misfortune of being mostly successful though, while other regional have been getting downsized as their flights have been being replaced by larger aircraft operated by the major airlines (with less frequency) Horizon has grown which has made it worse for them.

The amount of commercial pilots available has been dropping for years. This exact situation was predicted to happen, and even with huge increases in sign-up pay and bonuses has not solved the fundamental issue that it's just not practical for too many new pilots to get to the minimum required amount of flying hours. There are some decent paying jobs flying around small planes, but not nearly enough to cover the pilot shortage the airlines face.

rustykettel

Is it? From reading the Airline Pilot Central link above, the pay rate is higher now on paper but the short hops of Horizon means less flight hours (and thus less actual take home pay) than other regionals.

sfozrhfco

Regional airliners have been losing flights because they can no longer get away with paying sub-living wages for highly skilled jobs. If pilots are paid enough there would be no shortage as people would find that the costs of training can be paid for by the wages earned. Who in their right mind would pay all the money for flight training to end up with a Walmart/McDonalds salary? The regionals have created their own issues and lowing flight hours is not going to help them. Pay pilots mainline wages and the problem goes away. If not, shut down the Horizon operation and have an all mainline fleet.

alphaeagle

There were plenty of people willing to start out at Walmart/McDonalds salary when it was actually feasible to become an airline pilot. The pay was always an issue, but never caused an almost end to new pilots that has now happened. After a few years they knew they'd be making a decent wage working for the same company. Then a few years later move to larger aircraft with a major. The vast majority of current airline pilots did exactly that. Raising the minimum amount of hours required caused the problem, that's the fact. Lowering it back down to a reasonable level will fix it. Having much higher pay rates that they have now means they'll never have any issues finding qualified people in the future.

Not many people can take a -$200-300K hit to their finances to try to start a career. And hopefully by the time they are qualified and hired (which isn't guaranteed) they haven't developed any sort of common medical condition that would mean all that time and money were wasted since you no longer can fly.

WebTraveler

This was my fear - PDX would bear the brunt of the cuts on Horizon routes to beef up SFO.

It even hurts more with the fact that the AA (and Delta) tie in is gone.

So basically Alaska is giving PDX the bye bye. I guess the big beneficiary will likely be Southwest and to a lesser extent Delta. People gotta get to where they gotta get to.

The great PDX screw job by Brad Tilton. Let's call it what it is.

Asquared1

Not sure of your logic here. AS has 20+ departures a day from PDX to SEA even with the cutbacks. If they are cutting a couple of those it would hardly be a "bye-bye" signal, am I missing something here?

AS is also funding terminal expansion at PDX as well, aren't they?

Calculon

OP probably meant "routes in/out of SEA and PDX", not SEA-PDX specifically.

Asquared1

Ahhh...my bad.

Wasn't it somewhat logical to shift some traffic to SFO after VX acquisition? PDX and SEA were going to take the brunt of QX problems anyhow.

ucdtim17

It didn't have to be this way, and it's not a foregone conclusion the moves will be successful. It may be the right course of action, but it's a business decision they made and it's certainly fair to criticize and complain here. AS could burn a lot of cash fighting (and sometimes losing) multiple fronts v UA/WN in California while DL/F9/others step in to fill dropped routes and build up in the NW.

eponymous_coward

There is zero chance F9 is going to fly routes like SEA-GTF or PDX-PSC. DL, sure, I guess (though TBH it makes more sense to expand out of SEA when it comes to PDX) but come on, F9 is not going to put even an A319 on routes like that, let alone an A320, unless they want to lose money (F9 doesn't have QX-sized planes or regional operators).

I would put the odds of UA/AA/WN deciding they need to beef up their SEA/PDX operation to take over PNW regional routes that QX is having a bumpy ride on to be about the same as F9 deciding they'll want to set money on fire flying Airbus airplanes to markets that can't possibly support them. UA and AA don't have any appreciable feed to SEA; it's a spoke in their network. WN tried GEG and BOI back in the day and flopped.

DL expansion via OO makes sense since unlike AA/UA/WN you could actually connect traffic somewhere where it makes sense, sure, but come on... why would UA or AA want to fly people through SEA from GFT or PSC when they could do it to SFO/DEN? Also... if you're flying RJs you might bump your head on the same problem QX is. Everyone is short RJ pilots.

ucdtim17

Frontier just announced SEA-COS today, four days after QX left the market. DL will be happy to move in on other regional routes I assume.

jinglish

e_c's point still stands. SEA-COS is possibly a market F9 could get to work for them, but PDX-PSC isn't going to happen with them, and it's questionable if DL can make it work--PDX isn't a hub for them like it is for AS.